Class

[Boe]

Just wondered what made people a certain class - I was described as middle class the other day and not sure if I agree.

There are a few mentions n Northerners thread about her parents coming to stay and I can not for the life of me figure out what makes one middle class or working class - I go to work so IMO I am working class - Is this right????

It seems that nobody talks badly about their own class or people in similar positions to themselves or those that have less than themselves yet people seem to talk badly about those that have more than them. Wealthy people or people who are considered 'upper class' (however you want to term it) always seem to be perceived as looking down their noses at others as if they are bad people, this is not always the case just as not all working class people look up their noses (or whatever the reverse is) at people with more than them.

Is that not like saying working class people are 'dirty' because many years ago they couldn't afford to bathe?

Biting my tongue here

Teletubby, that's true, but then the upper/upper middle classes still have lots of advantages most of us don't have and it's not just money.

I have a friend who has a very plummy accent (public school etc.) who is forever moaning about "inverse snobbery". And it's true that some people take something close to a dislike to him when he first opens his mouth. However, he has walked into several very well paid jobs simply by using a combination of his accent and a certain public-school charm (and I mean that - he wasn't qualified for them).

It's swings and roundabouts I guess, but since its generally those in the upper classes who are in power, there's still a lot of rebalancing to do.

Also wealthy people often do look down their noses at people with less.

I'm fed up with being thought stupid because I speak with a London accent. I like accents and dialects. I think it makes people more interesting to listen to.

SamboM - been trying to get hold of you! THANK YOU! (she knows what I mean!)

How come Custy hasn't joined in this one yet? Oh well I'll have to fight the corner in her absence then!
I personally think that class definition stinks and is a load of old bulls**t anyway! How many examples have we come across here where individuals are labelled as a certain class that really does not apply to them at all!
And Dadslib - calling the unemployable lower class also stinks. Ever been unemployed yourself? Know how it feels do you? I certainly do!

My dh comes from a well to do farming family, I guess farmers would be middle class by Marx's definition, but these have managed their money well and vote Tory, does that make them middle class? Anyway, he has tons of qualifications but has chosen to become a digger-driver (working class?). I have a degree in English and Law, but am the only one of my family to have pursued education, we were brought up in a council house in Oldham with a broken family, etc, etc. I am now a housewife and mother who runs 2 websites from home - so what class am I? And who really gives a s**t?

If any of you met my dh in his digger, would you treat him differently? Differently than if you met him in a suit accompanying his father to a council do? If you met me visiting my mum in Oldham with dd around my ankles how would you treat me? Would you assume that I had no qualifications? Custy's case is better, she has an English Lit degree and a bloody good job where she is respected. But if you didn't know this, and saw her on the council estate with three kids, how would you view her?

There are so many exceptions to class that I really don't think it is relevant today. It promotes stereotyping and prejudice of the worst kind. I know that ideals will never happen, but why can't we just accept people at face value? Why do we have to judge everyone based on appearance/accent/job whatever? We all know that life is never that simple, so why do we insist on treating people that way still?

Rhubarb - your education would make you middle class, but you are right that it is a strange one.

The point is not to go and categorise people here and there, but to study whole societies and try to make things fairer. As several people have said, very few kids whose fathers are unemployed/manual workers get A levels (although some do. Most of those are from families like yours). That needs to change and that is the point. Obviously any categories don't work for everyone, but that doesn't mean we should abandon them.

there.

Being serious, I think of class as a sort of social luck quotient. I've always considered myself pretty lucky in terms of things like finances, access to education, health care, nutritious food etc and therefore think that I'm middle class. There's nothing much outside my own considerable potential to fuck up that's holding me back! I don't think I'm a snob- hope not, anyway. I think class has absolutely nothing to do with merit and everything to do with equality of opportunity. I think it's laughable to pretend that opportunities are equal in this country, whatever class we consider ourselves to be.

I thought that in this day and age class was more to do with how we spend our time and money, rather than how we earn it.

I don't think you can categorise all wealthy people as looking down their noses at others, like i said, it works both ways and neither one is more acceptable than the other. With regards to a speaking properly and being posh, anyone can put that on to increase a good job opportunity, nobody needs to not pronounce there t's or use bad grammer

But why are qualifications soooo important anyway? Seems to me that a lot of parents put too much emphasis on their kids 'achieving' rather than being happy. I seriously don't care if my dd never passes a single GCSE. So long as she learns to respect herself and others, to try her best in anything she takes on and to stand up for justice, then I will be very happy.

Seen that programme 'Young Rich and Loaded'? There are some there (mainly the blokes) who are high achievers, but at what cost eh? I've never seen so many t*ers in such a short space of time before!

Good post rhubarb.

Teletubby we dont look our noses up. If a person is wealthy it doesnt necessarily make them a snob.But you obviously are.This has nothing to do with money but people struggle daily with different problems.look at mumsnet, a whole diversity of mums with different incomes but we all have problems. So why should I look my nose down at or up for that matter at ANYONE. We are all in the same boat together trying to provide the best for our families.
Lucy123 made a good point on the "plummy" accent and its advantages of walking into a job.It is so true.Why should they, when it is unmerited and there are people out there that FIT the criteria for that job.The class system stinks.
Look at Jeffrey Archer, he's another one of your ilk who feel unjustified and treated badly. Suing for damages because he was unfairly treated in person. My arse. He got it better than the other prisoners.

ps from an "unbathed council" no class individual.
oh and with problems

Teletubby, I think you'll find that should be 'their' and 'grammar'

I agree that happiness is the most important thing and if neither of my children achieved a thing yet tried their hardest and were happy etc then i too would readily accept that.

Rhubarb - I agree, my error - trying to mow lawn and sort out washing up! Typing is not my strong point especially when in a hurry. I didn't think this was a spelling or grammar test either!

Just a light-hearted point Teletubby!

Sorry I've just picked myself up and dusted myself down after reading Teletubby's comment that at one point the working classes couldn't afford to bathe. Where did you get this stupid notion from?!

It might have been in a steel tub in front of the fire - but they did bathe!

Rhubarb - Meant light-heartedly back (if there is such a word)

May well have bathed but in river water or something plus they use to throw their s**t into the streets

ROFL Northerner.

Ooh by gum wot a palaver

Oooh, scummymummy, I hate to do this to you but both my mother and I read Noel Streatfeild avidly as children. I would (if I had to) count myslef as middle class, but my mother is a miner's daughter and grew up in extreme poverty. I guess if a child is keen enough and there is a library nearby then they can rise above their class in terms of Ballet Shoes and the like?
P.S. I lurved all the Gemma books, too!

Teletubby, I think you are talking about the middle ages or something.

Since when did the working classes ever throw shit into the streets? Back up this comment with facts please if you can.

They did have toilets you know, aswell as baths.

I'm off to the beach tomorrow so I can afford to bathe.

I'm sorry but I am laughing here at some of the daft shite on this thread.

Yeah, I remember my gran telling me that she used to throw hers and her husband's shit in the streets. And she once got so cruddy from not bathing that they had to hack her clothes off her eventually! C'mon, surely this is a wind-up! My gran worked in the cotton mills all her life, but you would never meet a prouder or more hard-working woman in all your life! Shame on you Teletubby if you really meant that post!