Class

[Boe]

Just wondered what made people a certain class - I was described as middle class the other day and not sure if I agree.

There are a few mentions n Northerners thread about her parents coming to stay and I can not for the life of me figure out what makes one middle class or working class - I go to work so IMO I am working class - Is this right????

Well I've just been to the loo.

Referring to Victorian times when typhoid etc was at its worst due to people drinking water that had been contaminated with human waste. Therefore, bath water was also dirty and contaminated but the rich/better off use to pay to bathe in the big public baths where the water was clean.

teletubby, could you please cite some sources for these assertions?

where did rich shit go then?

This is just turning into a slagging off match. Whatever happened in the past, the conditions the poor had to live in, etc, are of no relevance to the current argument on class importance/distinction. If anything Teletubby's posts should make people even more determined to abolish class distinction so that people are never treated in that disgusting way again.

Reminds me of apartheid.

Is this an turning into an exercise in trollism?

Hi Rhubarb, you're welcome

Have replied on the thread you left me

I agree that class should be abolished and people shouldn't look down or up at each other it just seems to me that it is more socially acceptable for people to look up in a nasty manner than it is for people to look down. Nobody should do either but it doesn't mean to say that certain things don't annoy people. I refuse to go out and have people thinking that they can call me what they like just because they think i may have more than them, i'm in no way abusive to less fortunate. Upper class should not be referred to as 'toffee nosed' and lower classes should not be referred to as 'dirty'. I did in no way call them dirty i was just saying that to sterotype rich people as 'toffee noses' was like sterotyping poor people as 'dirty'. Neither one should be sterotyped as we are all very different

Which is why, as you say, class should be abolished. You should not say, call yourself middle class, or upper middle class, as that sets yourself above those who are in lower classes. I wouldn't say that I was in any class, I am equal to everyone else, including the sodding Queen! So if we didn't make these distinctions ourselves, it would to some way to making class stereotyping a thing of the past - just like Victorian attitudes!

Here Here, lets just all be happy with who we are and what we've got!

Teletubby - do you think that if less 'council' people claimed benefits then this (or any) Government would spend the cash they saved on the NHS? Of course they wouldn't it would be blown pronto on something horrendous like their weapons budget. Where would you prefer your taxes to go given the straight choice?

Your issue doesn't seem to be about class it seems to be about WEALTH and the divisions this creates in society - those who "have" feel superior. Those who "have-not" feel inferior. IMO it's consumerism we have to fear and not class.

Going back to the class issue, my parent's respective families were all coal miners (aye even the women worked down t'pit - when there were still working pits in this country!) My dad left school at 13 but managed to make a few bob for himself, enough to send my sister and I to public school and fund us through Uni. I have been judged and pigeon-holed by people of every social strata, accpeted on some levels only to be rejected on others ie you look/sound like one of us but you're family are "common as muck" the inverse being "we love your family but you're a stuck-up, toffee-nosed prat". I've learnt to roll with it, it's all bullshit anyway.

Teletubby, in answer to your question "does my Mercedes SLK convertible make me upper class?",
I would say definitely no. This makes you "nouveau riche", which the upper classes would traditionally sneer at.
Money certainly doesn't equate to class, although how you choose to spend it is probably a good indicator. Spending a large proportion of your wealth on a car is not an upper class choice IMO. Running an old banger or roller and living in a down at heel but historic stately pile with land is more the upper class choice. Also choosing to pay for private schools rather than swanky cars.
I am sure however that your car is lovely and your life choices just as valid as any, and have to say again that I wish the British could just stop perpetuating the class system as it is unhelpful IMO.

The reason why I asked about Richard Branson was when I was studying sociology our tutor told us that the likes of Richard Branson, Paul McCartney etc would never be accepted by the upper classes on an equal par. They are classed as the "new rich"or something along those lines but their children would be accepted as they were born into that wealth.Please quote me if I am wrong as I am going on memory a few years back, but that comment did stick in my mind, maybe it was the tutors opinion.
I agree with alot of people here that the class system is outdated.

Rhubarb, dadslib didn't call the unemployable etc "lower" class, he called them "under" class, which is often used these days to denote those struggling to keep going, and I think it's a fair description and not derogatory.

re bathing, Queen Elizabeth I supposedly used to bath once a year whether she needed it or not, so she was obviously working class!

I think the class system was at its strongest between the wars, when the middle classes still had servants. WWII made a big difference to our society as many of the women, especially, who would have been domestic servants went to work in factories etc and appreciated the independence it gave them. The old middle class were never the same again.

I agree with CAM and others that your values/attitudes define who/what you are more than your job or possessions or income. Also with scoobysnax that things like Merc convertibles are noov accessories. I wish people would pay less attention to accents and accessories and more to how people think and feel but it's easier to spot the outward show. In normal American society you can move as high as you like as long as you have the money to do it and you're not black or Hispanic...

doormat, Richard Branson's family was quite posh and he went to public school. Maybe making so much money in (gasp!) "trade" means posher people might avoid him. Don't suppose he would care anyway!

scummymummy, lol at your definitive noel streatfield test! Brilliant. Loved all of them - but did you read a really wierd one called the Family at Caldicott Place about a little boy who was left a huge estate by some old man he hardly knew - was v strange!
If you want to refine your test you could also check who read Arthur Ransome (boys) and Monica Dickens (girls) - dead giveaway that!!

This is all very tongue in cheek by the way. But amazed at some of the views expressed on here. Love the thought of abolishing class as well - how exactly? Shall we pass a law? Or have a phone in on Channel 5?!!

One conversation I remember having with someone when I first moved to the UK was about class. I found it all very weird how definite it seemed to be. What this person told me is that, for the most part, it's obvious from the accent. I guess I never got the impression that it mattered so much in jobs (except for example, one wouldn't hire a bank teller with a working class accent -- this being the example given to me) but that it was more a social issue.

Being from the US, I assume accents are a regional thing. I expect southern accents from those that have lived in the South a while, Chicago accents from families with a long Chicago history (and yes, I do assume that they're for the Bears) and other accents depending on where I am. It's weird to see it define someone otherwise. (Not just in a movies, but in real life. Chicago accents are often used to portray beer swilling clowns, but in real life, people with Chicago accents hold most positions of power in the city government, eg the Daley clan). Anyway, very weird for me. Not to say that America doesn't have such preconceptions/misconceptions based on socioeconomic status and/or accent (just try having a Southern accent anywhere but the South!). Just to say that the experience is not transferrable.

Expatkat: " For them, the longer your ancestors have been in the US, the higher your status. So that's another more subtle aspect to the US "class" system. "

But I think it's all for the really rich posh people on the East Coast who feel the need to differentiate among themselves. No one else cares.

Teletubby: "... I'm a firm believer that anyone is capable of achieving what they want to do if they really believe in it and themselves and any obstacles that get in the way can be overcome, not always easily but if you really have a dream then you'll find a way."

This is what is known in America as the "American Dream" and personally, I don't believe it's always (mostly, even) possible. People can and do work hard just to subsist, which is most likely not their dream. People can and do work hard, only not to be able to support themselves and their families. I'm sure that wasn't their dream either.

Someone also told me that the government, until recently (don't know how long "recently" is), catagorized people into classes. Does anyone know about that?

Anyway, love the discussion-- very interesting. Don't mean to imply that the US has no class system, just that it's v different to the UK thing.

Whaich govt, JJ? You don't mean the A/B/C1/C2 etc system?

ks, I thought that was an American, self designated thing. More applicable to salary than anything else.

Janh, the UK gov't. I don't really know if the system you're mentioning is what I mean, I just heard there was a gov't designation given for each person's class once. What did it cover? Was it official?

there were some very amusing "class indicators" discussed on this thread a while ago. growing herbs, taps, and family photos figure largely iirc!

btw, couldn't bear noel streatfield but loved arthur ransome...