Following on from the Cameron/Christian thread, Lilibet needs advice

[lilibet]

Ok here goes, I am very much in love with my (non christian) DP, we don't live together but he stays at my house with myself and my children usually about 4 nights a week. We are all very happy and the children really like him, all going very well. He knows how much my faith means to me, and would never dream of doing anything to take me away from it, in fact he is now a regular at church with me and finds some of the services really interesting, some prompting some very interesting discussions as he wants to know more about the topics that have been talked about. On Saturday night at a party, after quite a bit of drink all round, our Vicars wife mentioned to me the possibility of him attending the new Alpha that is coming up, I know that he would hate this sort of thing as I have mentioned it to him in the past and as he has never wanted to do it, I have left it. Told her this and also told her that from Sepetember he is doing accountancy exams in his own time after work so he will have very little spare time anyway, but I did point out to her that I was talking to him about Jesus and evangalising as best I could without becoming overbearing.
She then pointed out to me that as long as I was having sex with him, he would never make a commitment, as by going against all Christian teachings and 'fornicating' I was not doing Jesus any honour, and I was showing DP that I had no respect for my religion by picking and choosing which bits of the bible I was deciding to follow. Then came the worst bit, She was only asking me to do a little thing by stopping sleeping with him (how she knows that I am sleeping with him is another very long story!) its not like she was asking me to have nails driven into my hands. By this point I was in tears, DP came over, She started saying about the Alpha to him, he was a bit puzzled as to why I was crying and it developed into a stand up row between her and DP. I went to get the Vicar who is a wonderful gentle spirit led man, and asked him to intervene. He was a quiet calming influence, saying very little, his wife got upset and dp and I left. Following morning, it wsa very hard going to church and of course DP felt that he had to come with me, but all went well, we shared the peace with her and she hugged us both. I do know that she only has my and DP's best interests at heart and was doing what she thought was right but I was so upset and DP was absolutley furious. I didn't jump into bed with him immediatley, we were both certain that we loved one another before we had sex and he told them on Saturday that this is going to be a relationship that will last all our lives and how much he loves me, which did make me very proud of him. I know that she thinks that relationships where one person is born again adn one isn't are doomed to failure but I know that this will not be the case with us as he is so understanding and interested in my faith, but I admit that I have seen realtionships break up becasue of it.
So? Sorry If I have rambled, but would appreciate opinions. Thanks

I hope you get some good advice from fellow Christians, Lilibet, because as one with no faith I find this quite hard to understand. Does the vicar's wife have spiritual jurisdiction over you, as it were? Sounds like she was taking a bit too much upon herself to me. Surely your sex life is between you and your dp as long as you feel fine about it in the context of your religion? I can see why the vicar might feel qualified to advise you but not his wife... I also personally think that if there is a God He would smile on love and sexual enjoyment without getting hung up about the small stuff but I know you probably need to hear that from fellow Christians rather than me. Good luck.

Thanks scummy, was just getting that paranoid 'no one is going to answer my thread' feeling!!

Hi Lilibet

I am not a christian but I thought I would reply to your post. I apologise now if I say anything that might offend you.

I really don't think that the vicar's wife should have any influence over your sex life at all. You had every right to be upset and your DP had every right to be angry. You are in a loving and respectful relationship and that should be all that matters. Your DP is obviously trying to embrace your faith and I think that is great of him.

Like I said before, I'm not religious and I don't understand all the issues involved but I would have thought that the church should open its arms to everyone and get up to date with what is considered the norm these days. Sleeping with your partner is nothing to be ashamed of.

Lilibet, this sounds awful, and is an illustration of how intolerant some "Christians" can be.

I'd better put my cards on the table and tell you where I'm coming from...I was brought up a Christian by my C of E parents, attended Sunday Service and other High days willingly through my teenage years and was an active member of "Angsoc" (!) at University. I was terribly hurt by some members of the CU telling me in my first week away from home that I was not a Christian, because I couldn't name the date on which I had been saved- as far as I was concerned I had always been a Christian, and had never come across this kind of attitude. Since leaving University, I moved around a lot for my job, but always made an effort to go to Church and when I settled in one place I boarded with a school friend and her dh who happened to be a priest (C of E). I went to Church regularly then, and when the time came for me to marry a divorce, we were married in church, with the blessing of the Bishop! You may not class me a Christian (and there are other Mumsnetters who don't), but I try my best to follow the teachings of Christ. There are bits of the bible that I don't take as absolute fact, more because I don't understand, than because I don't believe. I don't class that as "picking and choosing"(well I wouldn't, would I?) but as reserving judgement until such time as I have all the info.available.

Enough of me! It seems to me that you have been witnessing by example. It is great that your dp wants to attend Church, great that he is interested enough to discuss it with you, and I bet that, left to his devices and your company he will quietly come to believe. I think the surest way of putting him off would be to ram it down his throat. I have no experience of the Alpha course, so can't comment, But I've heard that it comes on pretty strong....

As for your sleeping arrangements, well, girl, you live in the 21st Century, you are committed and loving, and it is none of her business (was tempted to use some strong language just there).I would have thought it was the job of the minister priest,vicar, whatever to give you advice, not his wife. If he'd asked you to stop sleeping with your dp, I'd still have said the same, mind you, but I think she's completely out of order. I suppose I'll be accused of picking and choosing- I have been before, but I don't see what having a marriage certificate has to do with anything! You have made your commitment to each other, presumably God knows about it, you don't need a public ceremony to say that it is OK to have sex.

What would I do? I would leave that Church, and go to one much more welcoming of couples, married or not. I'm sure your Vicar understands how upset you are, and I would make it clear that I expect an apology from his wife, and reassurance that the subject won't be brought up again.

I haven't been much help, I know, I can't quote chapter and verse to back myself up, but I think this woman, whilst possibly well meaning has behaved in a very unchristian fashion.

Hi Lilibet - what a horrible situation to be in. I can only assume, trying to look at it from the vicar's wife's point of view that this is something she feels very strongly about and wanted to share her point of view with you, however, in my experience this is quite an 'extreme' opinion (like homophobia) and certainly not one I have come across as a Christian; her attitude is certainly more likely to put your DP off christianity rather than encouraging him. If the subject comes up again (and I hope it doesn't) I think all you can say is 'I do respect your point of view, but DP and I are very happy in our relationship' & change the subject. You could always have a quiet word with your vicar and let him know that you would appreciate his wife not putting her opinion over so forcefully that it upsets you.

My understanding of christianity is that we should all value & respect different points of view and different lifestyles.

It can be difficult when one partner is more 'commited' to a religion than the other (my DH is no where near as involved in Church life as I am) - but it doesn't mean the relationship is doomed to fail, just makes for lots of interesting debates & discussions!

Good luck - your DP sounds like a lovely man.

Thanks Tissy, really good post. I don't want to leave the church as I have soem very good friends ther and have attended for 12 years, I do things there that I love doing (visiting families who want their children baptising, really interesting job!), I think that you are right in what you said about some people looking down on you if you haven't had a lightening conversion to Christianity, I didn't, was brought up to know that Jesus was my saviour, and if anyone ever says anything nasty or sharp about it, I tell them that I have had the plessure of knowing God all my life and what can be better than that!!

I think that any religeon that judges a set of rules over the hapiness of the people that follwo it are mad - sorry if this isthe wrong thing to say but I have realised that happiness and fullfillment (and that includes fornication) is what we should strive for - what is the point of iving an unhappy life - I am fornicating as till married to x2b but as far as relationships go have never felt so happy and fullfilled - in every sense.

Religieon is great if it understands that we also have emotions and fighting against them is the worst thing that we, inmy opinion can do. I was at a point disgusted (as was brought up catholic) that I am committing adultery but I am not hurting anyone and I am sooooooooooooo happy - there are far more sins within the priesthood than I care to mention and hypocrisy - live life to make you happy and fullfilled - not because some book says you should live a certain way - that is how I feel but I think what ever you believe is fine (also am lightweight and have had 2 glasses of v. nice vino!!) - religeon as caused far too much war and conflict in my opinion!!

Sorry don't mean to inflame thinsg but I think am humanitarian - am starting to be v.tolerant and just feel that everyone should strive to be happy and not feel that they should follow a certain teaching.

But am as I said tipsy and I LOVE YOU ALL!!

God and all this on just 2 glasses of wine!!

I thought you'd say that just testing the water!

Let it lie for a while, then . If they know your attitude, and are still welcoming, then it can't be such a big deal after all.(I mean to them, and the "Church", not to you, of course!). Perhaps the drink got the better of the Vicar's wife, and she's now regretting laying in to you? (She still ought to apologise, though. I don't class offering you the Peace as an apology of any sort!). Are you the only unmarried fornicating couple in the Church?

Lillibet if he makes you happy go for it - he could be the one or could not but do not discard him because he does not follow a set of frankly out dated rules - you have the right to be happy.

Lillibet if he makes you happy go for it - he could be the one or could not but do not discard him because he does not follow a set of frankly out dated rules - you have the right to be happy.

Just previewed this and its a bit heavy!! But here goes....
Try telling her that you are aware of the church of England's official position as set out in the document 'Something to Celebrate'. This says that sex is a good thing, we are meant to enjoy it, and it binds people together. Since it creates such a strong bond between two people it is very painful for that to be broken, so it isn't something that should be played about with, but marriage needs to be understood more flexibly than a simple bit of paper, as a process of being in relationship. (My words, but the gist is right!). This seems to me to be a very sane and balanced view to take, and probably describes your relationship well. After all, the idea of marriage was only a legal and economic contract that only the richer people bothered with until well into the middle ages - most Christians didn't have a marriage ceremony for the first millenia, they just slept together which meant they were married. The quality of your relationship is a gift from God. You can enjoy it and live within it, without devaluing it, and it may well develop into formal marriage - but the Church definitely recognises nowadays that marriage ceremonies are normally about recognising and celebrating an existing relationship, not creating a new one.
A personal 'testimony' (Christian jargon alert!): I started sleeping with my husbandtobe at uni, when he was a Christian and I wasn't. Partly as a result, I think, I was converted; and a bit later (about a year on) it felt right that we should get married since as two Christians sleeping together it felt we should make the relationship formal. So from my own experience I think that sexual activity is not anti-Christian! (And as I said on the previous thread, I'm now a curate (at a parish in Newcastle)). Most of the prohibitions about marriage and sexual activity that we have inherited from the past are clearly the result of socio-economic forces and the lack of contraception; you couldn't risk people having children outside marriage (though of course it still happened very frequently!) when property rights and inheritances were at stake. Also a lot of it was frankly about keeping women in their place, controlling female sexuality and about men trying to be sure that they knew their children were theirs. Lots of this is still around today, especially in more conservative churches (often evangelical ones as it gets tied up with literal interpretations of the bible), but also in garbled stuff about 'family values' which is often dangerous sexism dressed up as morality. (OK, feminist rant over!).
To get back to the theology, Jesus came to tell us that we are loved and accepted by God whatever we do, whoever we are. We are saved by grace, not works - don't let anyone tell you that Christianity is a moral code, that is such a distortion of the truth. The good news is that we are loved, totally accepted by God, and nothing we can do can stop that. Tell the vicar's wife that...
And carry on going to church! It was lovely to hear that you both went the next day and shared the peace with her - good on you.
Oh, and DON'T send him on an Alpha course - its dreadful....

I've just discovered smileys!! They're great!!

I liked your post, Miranda- although am heathen liberal myself. Do you mind if I imagine you to be a bit like Janet from the Archers or is that just too much of a cliché?

Don't want to appear ignorant, but what is the Alpha course?

That vicar's wife sounds just a tinsy bit jealous to me - does her hubby not have sex with her or something? This is not a Christian view at all these days, so her views are entirely her own and not based on any Christian teaching.

I am a Catholic, dh was also baptised a Catholic but is unsure of what he believes. We lived together before getting married and yes, we did have sex. I saw my priest about this (my choice, not something I felt I had to do) and he was great, he said he had written a thesis during his priest training about the contributions young couples could make to the Church. His view was that as long as we loved each other, that was commitment enough.

We did get married in the Catholic Church, and dh often goes to the Sunday services with me, but he won't commit himself to any organised religion, he says his faith is personal. He respects my faith and I respect his. Just remember that with God there is no judging (and the Vicar's wife should know all about not judging as a Christian), and He knows what is in your heart. He is the only person you have to answer to, no-one else. So if you are in love with this guy, what harm are you doing? Sex is part of love. You enjoy it and accept your guy as he is. He may come round to your way of thinking or he may not, but you have to be prepared to love him for who he is right now, not who he might be in the future. We are not judged on what religion we follow but what is in our hearts.

Hope this helps!

Scummy LOL. I had Janet from the Archers in my mind, too.
And I hope you don't take offense at that miranda - I thought she was/is (?) a great advert for vicars in general, quite apart from the fact that she is a woman. (Oh, and she's not real of course....)

Wow, really good posts. thanks a lot everyone and its very good to get a 'professional' view, Miranda2, where could I get a copy of the document you mentioned, would it be availbale online?
the Alpha course (Miranda2 could probably explain it beter) is a sort of introduction to Christianity course that churches run, you may have seen t he posters advertising it but not realised what they are about, they can be a bit vague, soetimes a big question mark. I have heard good and bad comments about them but as they are a very much group discussion thing, I know that they are not for my dp.

Not offended! But I don't listen to the Archers so I've got no idea who you're talking about I shall take it as a compliment though

Oh do, Miranda. She was great though she has now disappeared into the big wide post-Archers world along with her man Tim, after a big hooha around whether the two of them were meant to be.

Miranda what an inspirational post - agree about the Alpha thing, too evangelical for my liking

Miranda, mind if I ask a question? The bit about the moral code...I realise that Christianity is not just that, of course, but isn't a large part of it acting as Christ taught us to act?

My big problem with religions in general (and I do still class myself as a Christian, as I said below)is their exclusivity... I know many people from other religions who are GOOD, and deserve a place in heaven (I think), probably more than me.Does God require us to accept Jesus as the only way to Him, or is the idea that we all follow Jesus' example (perhaps without even knowing about Him.

Sorry to hijack your thread, Lilibet. If miranda does feel like answering that one, maybe it is another thread altogether! I'll understand if you visit Mumsnet without your dog collar on, though, miranda

lilibet, sorry I'm going to go against the flow of these threads but I've been in the same position as you and in my experience there are issues that have to be resolved when you have a non-believing partner. I became a christian while living with my partner who was not a christian. I wanted to get married as I didn't feel 'right' just living together. My partner didn't object to this but I felt God was telling me that there would be problems if we didn't share faith. To cut a very long story short, my partner realised how serious this was to me and began looking into christianity and meeting the vicar.
He became a christian, my husband and we now have 2 children
While the vicar's wife was out of order to confront at a social gathering, perhaps she was trying to point out that there are issues that have to be addressed. Hope I haven't offended but I have been there and I know the dilemmas involved.

Tissy, really good point, one my dp would love to read an official answer to, but I would understand if Miranda didn't want to answer too.
Mog, My dp is looking into Christianity and he has so many questions that I cant seem to answer for him, one being the one below, I wouldn't describe him as a non beleiver, not usre how I would describe his attitude to faith, thanks for beign honest with me too.

Sorry Lilibet, I've searched on google and I'm afraid none of the online archives have the report as it is too old (1995). There are various articles about it though, taking the predictable sides!

Tissy - briefly: I'm NOT saying that you have to be a Christian to be close to God. I'm saying that the point of Christianity is not that you have to behave in a certain way for God to love you, to get ticks on your heavenly starchart/go to heaven/whatever, but that God loves us, and that knowledge should free us to be ourselves and love others out of a deep sense of selfworth and self confidence that comes from being loved by someone who knows everything about us, and STILL loves us unconditionally. All the moral codes etc are either social stuff that linked in to religion to give itself added kudos, or the better ones are fossilised versions of peoples attempts to work out what the most loving thing to do in various situations was. Eg, on 'fornication' - generally not loving for a bloke to sleep around, as the woman might get pregnant and she'll have to carry the can. Add this to the desire to control female sexuality and economic considerations I mentioned in my previous post, and its easy to see how you get to Sex = Bad.
If you want to discuss further we'll start a separate theology thread!! (If you want to start one I'll post tomorrow - going to bed now - ds will be up in 8.5 hours and I need my sleep).

I knew I shouldn't have owned up to my job!!! No, this is cool - I get to chat on mumsnet and discuss theology, my two favourite pastimes!

I don't think it is so unusual for church-goers to believe sex should only be within marriage. It has always been the case in society as a whole until last few decades & in the churches I used to attend was definitely the case. I would think the question is whether the formal marriage certificate is really the important thing, or the commitment/intention.
I don't know. I stopped attending church when I left my ex-H tho still believe.
My current dh is very anti-Christian which is a potential nightmare, particularly as he & I will have very different explanations for our dd when she questions life, the universe & everything etc.
Sorry, not much help, but I'm not surprised that someone in a church environment brought the subject up really. brave or mad...