Dogs on Nursery Property - AIBU?

[PearlsofHelp]

The nursery where my son attends is in a converted house, and you hand over/are handed children at a side door which leads into a small courtyard (behind a key pad accessed gate)

Handovers are done in this courtyard, and at busy times there can be 4 families in the same space.

Recently, more and more people have started to bring dogs with them at drop off/pick up and bring them into this courtyard. My 2 year old is terrified. One of the things he likes to do is to walk from the gate to the door himself, but he has to be carried if there is a dog because he’s so scared, so I’m handing him over is a stressed state which is not an ideal way to start the day.

I sent an email to the nursery manager raising my concerns,

“I hope you’ve had a lovely week.

I just wanted to raise something that’s been on my mind. (My husband) mentioned that there was a dog in the courtyard this morning during drop-off, and unfortunately, (my son) had to be carried in as he was too frightened to walk past it. This isn’t the first time it’s happened, and I know it’s something he’s really anxious about.

I also worry a little about pick-up times, when dogs are in the courtyard and children are coming out of the building. With the natural hustle and bustle, and adults often focused on handovers, there’s always a small risk that a child might approach a dog in the wrong way, leading to an unintended incident. Of course, that would be distressing for everyone involved.

I completely understand that many families walk and bring their dogs with them, and it’s a tricky balance to strike. I just wanted to share how it’s affecting (my son), in case there’s anything that can be done to help make drop-off and pick-up feel safer and more comfortable for everyone.

Thanks so much for your understanding.

Best wishes,

The nursery replied, a whole week later.. and said “I understand the concerns raised in your email and that (my son) was unsure about coming into the nursery because of the dogs in the courtyard. We don't actively discourage family pets coming to nursery, but I will use the weekly sheet to remind all owners of the need to keep pets under control (on a lead) while on the nursery premises. During handovers, the staff are always aware if their is a dog within the courtyard and will always discourage the children from touching the dog unless approval has been given by the owner and the child is alongside an adult”

I replied again

“Thank you for your response.

I really appreciate your explanation, but I do remain concerned about the presence of dogs in the courtyard during drop-off and pick-up times.
As I understand it, a core principle of any robust risk assessment is to eliminate risks wherever possible. In this case, it’s difficult to see how the presence of dogs provides a benefit that outweighs the potential risks to the children.
Dogs are routinely excluded from school sites, including (Our) Village School, and public playgrounds for very similar safeguarding reasons: to protect children from distress, accidental injury, or unpredictable behaviour.
I’d be grateful if you could confirm whether a formal risk assessment has been carried out specifically addressing this issue, as that may help provide some reassurance in light of my concerns”

She replied

“Currently, we do not have a formal risk assessment in place for dogs in the courtyard”

On the weekly sheet which is like a newsletter to parents it said “we love to see your pets at drop off/pick up but please keep them on a lead”

This felt like almost permission for people to bring dogs which I wasn’t thrilled about.

To me, having dogs in an enclosed space with no risk assessment, with children who are 9months-4years feels mad.

I’m not anti-dog by any stretch. We had dogs growing up and are very much “dog” people.

Their response has made my question myself. I am being unreasonable?

YANBU. Totally inappropriate. People are ridiculous about dogs in this country. Most schools ban them on site, with good reason. It's an accident and a lawsuit waiting to happen.

Dogs are lovely fun etc or nice dogs, until they are not.

Small children are at risk and it only takes once to change people's attitude.

Children are small and have a right to be protected.

My DB was bitten age 3-4 by the family dog, on his face. Everyone was focussed on a visitor and the normally lovely dog turned.

This would be my concern too, who knows what else goes on there if they are this lazy and thick over something so basic

You are reinforcing your sons fear work on erradicating it

Don't most primary schools have dogs now anyway? The staff say parents are less aggressive (not even joking) when dogs are there. I suppose it helps children who are nervous-one of mine was, but we were keen to avoid this as so many people need dogs (guide dogs, hearing dogs etc.)
It could be dangerous to leave dogs outside for pick up. One of the primaries in our town welcomes them, the other makes them stay outside, which means people leave them tied up unattended. This could mean they get stolen, which would be heartbreaking for the family, or that they're more likely to snap at kids who have left school and are walking home who are annoying them, because the owners aren't there to intervene if they're forced to leave them when they're picking up their kid.
If picking up their kid is the only time the parent can walk the dog, say if they all go to the park with everyone after school (if I had a dog and didn't work, I would have probably done this) it might not be possible to leave them at home. In all my days doing school runs, there was never an issue with dogs, but some with siblings/other family members picking up a child (and no, they can't safely wait outside).

https://www.dogster.com/statistics/dog-bite-statistics-uk

1. One in four people are bitten during their lifetime.

It's a no from me. If people want to risk their own children in their own home, I don't suppose I can do much about that. If they want to risk mine, I will remove my child from the risk. A busy playground with children running and making noise is ripe for an incident of dog aggression. Utterly stupid to risk it.

I agree. Time to find a new nursery.

I'm puzzled by the protestations from various posters that a dog on a lead is safe. Is it really beyond imagination that a dog on a lead might still bite a child? Maybe less likely, but still very much possible.

Kids can go up to a dog and try and touch it. Most parents don’t see a danger but any dog can lash out at having a hand near its face or being touched on the nose. The nursery calls dogs ‘pets’ which they are but they aren’t cuddly pets becausethey are trained for a purpose- hunting, herding, digging etc

I think the differnce is now there are far too many dogs with completely useless owners (as this thread highlights) and why so many people are sick of them now. I used to be a dog lover and now can barely stand them, especially annoying yappy ones. If you're scared your dog is going to be stolen then it needs to be left at home rather than you risk it harming a child, surely? And if you leave it outside untied to bite someone then you are a ignorant git. Your logic for letting dogs on property meant for children where their safety is priority is seriously flawed.

Why would you want to eradicate a self preservation mechanism? It’s a sensible fear for small children to have, statistically speaking.

It would make more sense for the nursery in question to prioritise the safety of the children in their care.

Thats a bit ridiculous, dogs are extremely low risk of transmission, not like cats, and the cats who are the risk are unlikely to be able to read the sign.

Because fear leads to riskier reactions like screaming or running which can trigger a chase response in dogs.
Teaching them to be calm and sensible around dogs is far safer than encouraging fear.

I don’t think you’re being unreasonable . I would be concerned too and my children aren’t afraid of dogs and I have two dogs at home. That being said both my children are neurodiverse and hard work at the best of times , I can’t imagine picking them up and adding a dog to the mix. How do those parents focus on pickup and keep track of their dogs body language ???

you'd be surprised by the amount of owners who know nothing about doggie body language. Just because it’s on lead doesn’t mean it can’t seriously harm a child. I’ve recently had an incident in my area where a child was sent to hospital by an on leash dog. The owner said the dog was safe to pet and well clearly it wasn’t because it bit the child in the face.

I would definitely leave the nursery and put up a review online so other parents know of this dog friendly policy. That way other concerned parents know not to go there and I suppose it helps them get dog lovers to join.

Contact Ofsted. Remain anonymous if you must.

Contact Ofsted. Remain anonymous if you must.

I'm not a dog owner but most children love dogs and very, very few dogs are dangerous. Surely you could use this to help your child to get over his fear of dogs

On lead dogs are lower risk not no risk. Being on leash doesn’t make the bite any less damaging or painful.

Many small children are scared of dogs which actually is quite sensible since dogs, even on leads, can be incredibly dangerous. The nursery’s response is terrible and would make me consider their wider approach to child safety and welfare.

Most men are friendly too, and harmless. Would you be happy to meet one alone in a dark alley? That's effectively what you're saying. All dogs are a risk, and responses like yours are ridiculous and dangerous

I’m a dog lover, and owner, but yes, it’s incredibly entitled. Your post makes that’s abundantly clear in fact.

Even the loveliest dogs aren’t risk free, many people are scared of dogs, particularly small children. It’s an unnecessary risk. I agree the OP should go elsewhere, but because of the lack of judgment and care and shown by the nursery and due to owners like you that could see a small child is scared, but still thinks taking the dog one metre further inside the fence is necessary. The lack of judgment shown by that owner makes me think that their dog likely isn’t safe at all.

I think people also need to recognise the size of a child compared to a dog and why a child might be scared. Look how many people are terrified of Bully dogs compared to Chihuahuas

Really depends on the dog here, surely?! If I had a dog that was unpredictable and anxious around a lot of people, of course don't bring it. If it's a dog that is used to people and kids and will happily ignore them, then there's no problem.

It doesn't need to be as dramatic as what's more important, the dog or the child! People can like kids and dogs and happily live alongside both in real life (though apparently not on MN 🙄)

Why do you think it’s good for little kids to be learning to manage fear during a nursery drop off? The kids already are managing separation so why do you think it good learning to manage anxiety about someone’s dog at this moment? Obviously it’s not the right moment. Only entitled dog owners would inflict their dog onto small kids at this moment. The nursery needs reporting for not doing an assessment of their drop off process.

Totally agree. And add to this that the dogs in this environment must live with a child of nursery age! So are unlikely to be child eating monsters 😂

MN is batshit when it comes to dogs!