Nursery shock report

[needmorecoffee]

anyone see this

Could it be that anyone who is 'unproductive economically' is essentially undervalued by our consumer society; such as elderly people, babies, people with a handicap. Maybe as a result of capitalism? This has the effect of making it low status and low paid work to look after the above. If nursery staff were valued and highly paid then where would that leave stay home parents? It wouldn't fit with the governments aim to have all parents in work or their mantra that paid work is essential to all no matter what the cost. I think that we should aim for less institutional care for under 3's (or maybe 2's) and better qualified staff and inspection. In an ideal world I think there should be some sort of tax credit to all families to use either towards childcare or to ofset SAH costs so that there is real choice. I do feel parents should be able to live on one wage too. (Most) Dual income families are not really better off these days nor financially independent from what I have seen..

Partly that jellybeans and that women's work as a whole (ie caring professions) are hideously underpaid because work which is traditionally seen as women's isn't valued. Hence all those thousands of female council workers getting loads of back pay.

amen jellybeans

It's bloody awful trying to find a nursery. You can never be 100% sure it is ok - but you have to choose one eventually, if that is the route you want to take.
The best you can do is look at all the info available and make a decision. What would be helpful from this thread, would be if anyone who has found a great nursery that they recommended, posted it.
Not sure if we would be allowed to do that though ?

dloeufydoo, i work in a nursery and i have to say i agree 100 percent with you ...ducks and runs ...

FFS, don't make this into a debate about working parents. This debate should be about the availability of quality, affordable childcare undertaken by trained and committed people.

Commenting on the decisions others have made to work and use childcare is not helpful and is downright rude.

Sad to say that I thought the programme was spot on with regards to what the whistleblower said.
My SIL is an experienced inspector with the Care Commission (Ofsted equivalent in Scotland) and recently said at a girls evening at my house that there were only two nurseries in Scotland that she would ever consider sending her children to and even then only if she were starving and homeless. She named her favoured one which is one of the most expensive in Glasgow wereupon my cousins girlfriend (a new addition to our crowd) said you must be having a laugh .She was genuinely horrified that an inspector really thought this place was ok. Turned out that she had worked there for three years and relayed what really happened on a daily basis . Low ratios were the norm (covered up by employing extra agency staff when a visit was expected). Food bought on the cheap and not healthy or indeed enough . Arty educational pictures completed by staff to look like the kids were coming on, nappy changing infrequently etc . My SIL was very upset , as was another guest whose 2 DSs attend. To cut a long story short, they chatted for hours about this place and could even recall certain days where parents were told this and that and the truth when explained was nothing like what the parents were being told. The guest whose sons attend could not figure out how she did not know this as she says that she felt she would know as she does drop in unexpectedly. Ex worker said it is amazing what parents dont see after inital choice as they tend to be much busier and distracted than they think. And also the staff are adept at smoothing things over.

As a result of this SIL is leaving the Inspectorate for a new job in another sector. She never felt that the inspections were enough anyway, also felt that the legal ratios are set too high for the children to get the quality of care that she feels they need.(eg 1-3 for babies - like having triplets - not enough individual attention - the babies care is rushed to get to next one)
She is so angry that the system is so lax and lethargic that these things can happen and her superiors dont act as it does not suit the political climate at present.

Though she would only have chosen 2 nurseries personally she confesses to having passed the majority of the rest that she visited - not because she thought they were suitable places for the children but because they did meet the defined government criteria. She feels the criteria has standards set far too low and does not go far enough or more importantly often enough.

PLEASE do not read this as any debate over to work or not etc etc - this is only to say that the "official information" available can be misleading .
It is a fact that some people have no choice but to work and use nurseries and I think that it is sad that they do not have the required support and reassurance of the authorities to help ensure their children have safe, high quality care.

PS we did ask cousins girlfriend if it was so bad why did she stay 3 years - she said it was still by far the best she worked in- though she would never place her children there . (She has a new job in a supermarket)

I am a fully qualified Level 3 Early Years Practitioner, I am also a mother of two children (aged 18 and 15) and have worked in a pre-school for 8 years. There are 11 staff at our pre-school, 9 of whom are parents themselves. 1 is a fully qualified teacher, 5 of us are Level 3, 3 are Level 2, and 2 are Level 1. We also have occasional students who come for practical work experience while training for their qualifications. While studying for my qualifications, I visited a Just Learning Nursery and a Seymour House Nursery to observe different childcare settings. In my experience, mums should look at the average age range of the staff and the ratios of staff to children. Generally in workplace nurseries (open all day every day), a lot of the staff are young, poorly paid, and while they may have qualifications, they lack the practical experience necessary when dealing with very young children (especially babies) as young staff are usually not parents themselves. In a pre-school setting, (open for 2.5 hour sessions, term time only), the staff are often older and more experienced, usually parents themselves, and they have the kind of knowledge of childcare that only comes with having children of their own. It only takes a second for a disaster to occur, but an experienced member of staff will often anticipate hazards which a 19 year old wouldn't. Mums, you should be aware that the government have suggested raising staff ratios in the future to 1 adult per 13 children (over 3). The ratios for under 3s will remain the same. Just think what could happen - you only have to have one child needing the toilet or having an accident, and the other 12 will be neglected. We have 5 or 6 staff members on duty at every session for 26 children which means that the quality of care, individual attention and the children's health and safety is maintained at all times. My wages are also not very high, yet I am an Early Years Professional with many courses under my belt. Childcare is a very important profession and the Pre-school Learning Alliance are committed to employ enthusiastic, motivated, qualified staff in all its settings. Unfortunately until the wages reflect the high level of profession that it is, and the Government want it to be, it will not attract the calibre of staff needed.

Some thing it did try to highlight was the ratio issue. I do not feel that the National Standards are very clear as to how the ratio within Full Day Care (nursery to those not up with Ofsted lingo) should be applied.
My view is that it should be per-room... as it's a bit much to expect someone to be supervising a child they can't see or hear, due to there being a physical wall between them!
SureStart (or whoever it is responsible for these) in my view really should re-write the National Standards, putting all the documents together (as currently there are revisions to the Standards) and making it much clearer what is meant by things. In particular: (Full Day Care National Standards)
"2.9 There is a minimum of 2 adults on duty" - do they mean that as the nursery as a whole, or per room/group?
"2.12 The adult:child ratios relate to staff time available to work directly with children. Additional staff and management resources may be required to undertake management tasks, prepare meals, for domestic tasks and to maintain premises and equipment." - no mention here of if the ratio is as a nursery as a whole, or per Group (a nursery can consist of several groups - group size can not exceed 26 - see 2.3)

When I temped in nurseries, I often found that ratios were being done as the nursery as a whole, not per room/group. Changing this could help a lot I feel, as then there would always be at least two members of staff in a room at any given time. However, cost is an issue... it would mean more staff, so more cost, so more fees for parents.
Ratios are the MINIMUM standard... they are not in my view supposed to be the norm. Great nurseries exceed the Ofsted ratios and apply those ratios on a per room/group basis.

I am a childminder and a qualified one at that so I'm pretty fed up with some commnets made.

When I used to mind a baby (his Mum had to give up as she could not afford to go back to work with 2 little ones at home) people used to think he was my own child when out in the street/doing school run because I treated him as my own for the few hours I looked after him.

Alot of childminders are either NVQ Level 3 (A Level equivalent and replacement for NNEB) or are even doing Foundation Degrees in Early years AND minding children. We have TOO MANY childminders and private day nurseries where I live so work is getting pretty scarce even for the very good and outstanding ones so we can't even match our fees to our experience (am currently charging £115 f/t all-in).

I chose to do this job to be able to stay at home and look after my own 5 yr old. I have no family nearby and cannot afford childminder as we get no help with WFTC. Am looking to do an Open University course as I cannot get time off to do a Foundation Degree while I childmind. Take note OFSTED.

Re ratios: I know a local nursry that got outstanding in their last repost despite the baby room member of staff being on her own with 3 babies (within ratio but not considered to be good practice), i despair! As a nursery manager it makes me cross.

Re age of staff: I disagree that young staff cannot give good care, we employ a range of ages 18-62! and each brings something different to the team. In my experience the older mums who have worked for me are more likely to be unaware of dangers as there are no rules at home and therefore some important things can be missed (well i've never done it like that at home and my kids are ok type of thing). having said that it IS important to have a mix of ages and experiences.

Re qualifications: A piece of paper does not make you a good nursery nurse, i could employ a level 3 of the street who is hopeless (there are lots of them out there) are they really any better than my trusted hard working and dedicated non-qualified. Again a mix is needed but i don't think only qualified staff is the answer. You would risk losing the mix of ages of staff as above. i cannot imagine my 62year old staff member wanting to do an NVQ but the children adore her, she brings a special quality to the rooms. Yes she might not be able to quote the curriculum at you but her role is just as important as the others.

Ofsted need to go back to yearly spot checks, with a true no notice policy, based on a more defined framework as nannynick suggests (the new EYFS welfare standards are also vague in places).

my sister in law works as a nursery nurse, she's fully qualified and has worked at several places. Shocking things have happened - her being placed in charge before she was qualified as they were short staffed, babies being given the wrong milk, child getting injured because they'd managed to get out onto the main street (next to a very very busy road) and cut himself on the gate, parents leaving their children in the babies room unaware the nursery had a known rat infestation.

I know for every horror nursery there will be a number of good ones but...

I chose to send dd to a nursery when she was five months when I was planning on going back to work as it was convenient and well priced. I went to pay my deposit in the middle of the day and saw that in the babies rooms two babies were strapped in their carseats and I could not see any assistant in the room. I sobbed for the day, lost my deposit and found myself looking for a childminder.

My dd has been with the CM now for coming up to two years and I have had no issues at all. And yes, I realise there are horrible CM's out there, but I count my lucky stars everyday that I found mine.

I thought the fact that Mark Warner expected its staff to work for them whilst on tourist visas, and expected the staff to lie for the company totally unacceptable.

I hope the Egyptian authorities throw the book at Mark Warner.

As for the McCann case, well, you can see from the program that a number of disastrous scenerios could potentially occur, one of which obviously occured because she's still missing. That's the ultimate nightmare.

I wonder whether these targets and pressure to meet them are due to this government's obsession with childcare and getting mums to work. How can they claim there are more childcare places or that they are expanding and able to look after the babies of lone parents, whom will soon be hugely encouraged to work, if there are few nurseries and masses of them are shut.

Families should be able to live on one wage whilst the othr parent stays at home with the children..or in the case of single parewnts ..a different approach[though not sure what]Society is geared around both parents going out to work.Though I have to say we are poor.We made a decision when we had ds1 that one of us would be at home.We have suffered financially but i really don't see the point of having kids and sticking them in childcare for 40+hours a week.I really don't.I expect loads of people will make loads of excuses but frankly i don't care.
Must be mad to do this to your kids.

You're an idiot. My family for one cannot live on one wage without going into debt. I can't believe you're so blinkered and stupid!

Families should be able to live on one wage whilst the othr parent stays at home with the children..or in the case of single parewnts ..a different approach[though not sure what]Society is geared around both parents going out to work.Though I have to say we are poor.We made a decision when we had ds1 that one of us would be at home.We have suffered financially but i really don't see the point of having kids and sticking them in childcare for 40+hours a week.I really don't.I expect loads of people will make loads of excuses but frankly i don't care.
Must be mad to do this to your kids.

You're an idiot. My family for one cannot live on one wage without going into debt. I can't believe you're so blinkered and stupid!

It's bizarre how some people cannot afford NOT to work but some cannot afford TO work (I choose to SAH but to be honest childcare, a second car, work clothes etc would probably render a second wage pretty useless. That's why I think everyone should be able to apply for a tax credit (like child benefit but more generous) then people would be less resentful (well at least those with children!) that some people can stay home while they have to work or vice versa, they could use their money towards either and have a real choice. (The government probably know that more people would choose to SAH but some research shows that 60% would choose to work part time)

I have heard the argument that people should not have children (ie lifestyle choice argument) unless they can afford either to stay home or pay their own childcare, I can see their point but life is not ideal and society is set up to make profit not to care for the 'unproductive'. I do think thought that childcare should be higher status both for SAHP and childcare workers. How this can be acheived though is questionable, as like someone said jobs carried out by women are usually low pay and status.

Jellybean you said "I do feel parents should be able to live on one wage too. (Most) Dual income families are not really better off these days nor financially independent from what I have seen.."

I don't know what you mean. We can't live on one income unless we dropped our lifestyle standards, which we are not prepared to do. There are other reasons for staying at work too (like it is economically safer, keeps skills up etc)

Believe you me, having two incomes makes a SIGNIFICANT difference to our lives.

Indiechick....I am extremely angry at you calling me stupid.Perhaps our priorities are different to yours?
I don't know anything about you or your life style but I will say that for us home owner ship,new cars etc are not important.Our children do not go without anything and are not being reared by strangers.We chose to have them.they are our responsibility.

Quattro, I can see your point. I know some people cannot afford to drop their income, possibly they have a dual income before they have children in many cases (so NEED the money for the mortgage etc) or they would have to take a drop in lifestyle if they give up work. It does seem true though, for some, that it costs more to go back to work and that they are not really better off (maybe depends on the skill level, salary, number of children, if there is family to help etc). Someone getting significant tax credits will not really be better off as a 'secondary earner' in low paid work. I agree about the skills, some jobs, if not most need workers to be current and up to date.

What I mean about not always being independant is that if people depend on two incomes to live on and they spilt up or one becomes unable to work, their income is halved, so really they are just as financially dependent on their other half as a SAHP may be. If the second wage is extra though, then that is a good position to be in.

I have always thought parents should make their own choices. I have changed between SAH and working p/t and f/t over the years. For now, it suits me to SAH and has enabled me to study for a degree (Thank goodness for the OU) which I never had the chance to get before. I am glad I have the choice and it is good if you have too and anyone else.

Actually,I retract the angry bit.I'm not

DDoo

"We have suffered financially but i really don't see the point of having kids and sticking them in childcare for 40+hours a week.I really don't.I expect loads of people will make loads of excuses but frankly i don't care.
Must be mad to do this to your kids. "

Have you ever actually asked your children about how they feel about being poor? I know that it shouldn't matter and it is good for their souls etc, but the fact remains that children (okay not yours but other peoples' then) can be materialistic little beasts and maybe, just maybe, they are not having the idyllic childhood you think they are.

When I say poor.I mean...don't have mortgage and new cars and sofas every 3 years.They have all the gadgets and things if they want them/need them.Sometimes there is more month than money that's all I mean.Which is probably the case when 2 parents work[for some].So we aren't poor really it just can be a struggle at times.

Oh and didn't say it was idyllic

DloeufyDoo - sorry, what do you live in? Do you own a home? You say you dont have a mortgage, so just wondering if it had been paid before you decided to have children or whether you are renting or in housing association?