So DONE with MN ablism / stereotyping

[AffIt]

I'll start:

Problem = X
Solution = "They must be autistic because..."

They don't like wet food
They don't like wearing socks
They shout when I'm in the bathroom
They cancelled a trip
They sometimes look to the left when I'm speaking to them

Please feel free to add your own 'FFS, really?' here.

@XDownwiththissortofthingX,

I take on board your point about the fact that there might be times where someone is using a diagnosis as a crutch to avoid the need to make an undesirable change.

My point was that the people who were offering the unsolicited advice were the ones avoiding change, the ones avoiding making reasonable adjustments. In that they wanted a diagnosis perhaps with the offer of compensatory funding, an official solution or at the very least 'proof' someone was entitled to have adjustments made.

Hmm, I'm not so sure about this. I think they'd have to be living in a vacuum!

I meant that part in reference to a situation where someone is suggesting the possibility of an instance of ND in a third party, to someone else who is giving an account of said third party's behaviours.

There are plenty of people who are utterly oblivious as to what ND is, I really don't see it as much of a stretch to suggest that some of them might live with, or be in a relationship with an undiagnosed ND person and it have never occurred to either them or the third party.

My own grandmother, in hindsight, was as clear a case of the classic 'Aspergers' type ND as there is. It's been remarked upon by other family members, but she herself, understandably given her generation, was completely oblivious to it. What's the interesting part of this though, is that my own mother is by far the most vociferous in bringing this fact up, and who is the single most obviously undiagnosed ND person in my life? Yup, my own mother. She's completely oblivious and would deny it until the end of days if you suggested it, but there's no doubting it. My Father just used to roll his eyes in a knowing way when my mother started up about my grandmother.

What's the interesting part of this though, is that my own mother is by far the most vociferous in bringing this fact up, and who is the single most obviously undiagnosed ND person in my life? Yup, my own mother. She's completely oblivious and would deny it until the end of days if you suggested it, but there's no doubting it. My Father just used to roll his eyes in a knowing way when my mother started up about my grandmother.

How would a diagnosis helped in these situations, though?

How would a diagnosis helped in these situations, though?

I'm not suggesting it would. It's just a pertinent example of someone who would quite obviously be given a diagnosis if they sought one, yet is completely oblivious to their own neurodiversity, hence why I don't think the 'have you ever considered...' queries about third parties are in any way odd or offensive. It happens, and in some circumstances it might help to understand and rationalise behaviours if they can be reasonably explained by neurodiversity if the person struggling to make sense of it has never considered the possibility before.

Have you ever read any of the accounts of people, including some mumsnetters, explaining that when they were finally given a diagnosis that it really made sense of things for them and that they stopped feeling like they were 'broken' or 'weird'? Sometimes it's the same for a relative or person who lives with someone who is undiagnosed ND. Just the realisation that ND is what 'it' is can be really helpful.

People just use it as a cart hall excuse for any behaviour they don’t like/don’t understand. Or use it to excuse arsehole-behaviours by themselves or others.

Like when people say ‘ohhh I’m a bit OCD!’ because they like to use a particular mug or checked they switched the gas off. No - of you are scrubbing your hands until they bleed because you have to wash them constantly (am old client) or can’t leave the house until you have gone through the kitchen cupboards to make sure all the labels gave the correct way and you have to tap the top of each one (my bro) then this is OCD, you have a preference or are just doing what everyone else does.

I mean, to explain a bit further -

I can't have contact with my mother for a number of reasons. Some of it is undoubtedly down to her ND behaviours, but I don't write her off out of hand as an 'arsehole', which is exactly what a large proportion of mumsnetters seem hellish keen to do whenever anyone displays behaviours that could, in theory, indicate some form of ND.

I know my mother is ND, hence I can understand and rationalise her behaviours, as much as I find them intolerable and utterly toxic, but I don't just discard her as being an inherent arsehole because I understand it's largely down to her ND and my own ND leading to a situation where we just can't coexist. So I understand my mother in a way that I wouldn't if I had no idea at all that she was ND.

@XDownwiththissortofthingX

Have you ever read any of the accounts of people, including some mumsnetters, explaining that when they were finally given a diagnosis that it really made sense of things for them and that they stopped feeling like they were 'broken' or 'weird'? Sometimes it's the same for a relative or person who lives with someone who is undiagnosed ND. Just the realisation that ND is what 'it' is can be really helpful.

Yes, I have and I fully understand this. I just think it's sad that people need this outside validation because of the way society is set up causes so many barriers to so many people. I hate the way that some people pounce on the most trivial of other people's behaviours and want to armchair diagnose for every little thing they dislike or find unusual in them. It's frustration over this aspect of society that makes me question these things sometimes.

Some of it is undoubtedly down to her ND behaviours, but I don't write her off out of hand as an 'arsehole', which is exactly what a large proportion of mumsnetters seem hellish keen to do whenever anyone displays behaviours that could, in theory, indicate some form of ND.

There is a middle ground. It's not necessarily a matter of ND or arsehole. Nice people have the potential behave in all sorts ways which are dysfunctional on one level or another given the right context. Sometimes it's just a mistake or misunderstanding, sometimes they have something in the past which means they join the dots in situations in a way that is inappropriate for the given situation.

I try to shy away from armchair diagnosing people as I am not qualified - I think this is right. I am aware of many possible reasons for behaviour some of which are ND some of which aren't. It's not up to me to decide which, all I have to do is be as sympathetic as possible and try to, within my power, limit/alleviate any damage.

I find the posts somewhat disturbing and it gives me a glimpse into the NT mind and to see how despised we are. It's contributed to the avoidance of NTs I now routinely practice in my everyday life because I now know what they think of me.

It's odd to see NTs on the boards desperately trying not to appear racist, homophobic, otherwise prejudiced etc. whereas that all goes out of the window when it comes to autistics and they're happy to fill their boots hating on a vulnerable minority.

It's odd to see NTs on the boards desperately trying not to appear racist, homophobic, otherwise prejudiced etc. whereas that all goes out of the window when it comes to autistics and they're happy to fill their boots hating on a vulnerable minority.

It starts in schools. The school Dd left last year introduced a new policy about celebrating diversity and making the curriculum accessible to different ethnicities, lgbtq students and even talks about body shaming.

Guess which “diversity” is missing from this document? Guess which group of pupils are told they have to try and conform?

Guess which “diversity” is missing from this document? Guess which group of pupils are told they have to try and conform?

Yip.

'All animals are equal, but some are more equal than others.'

Because you do xyz thing or use abc product not efg product you are scum evil and killing the environment and sensory issues are made up and nonsense.

They appear to believe that we don't make enough effort to be 'normal' and are therefore inadequate and bring our problems on ourselves. If only we'd try harder then we'd be acceptable and not get into so many difficulties.

@BarrowInFurnessRailwayStation Some threads on this site about being in a relationship with an autistic person have made me cry and cry. People will be as "woke" as you like until autism's involved (or any type of neurodiversity!) and then it's all about how hard we are to love and how It's Not An Excuse because XYZ person is autistic and manages to perform NT-ness just fine.

@BarrowInFurnessRailwayStation

They appear to believe that we don't make enough effort to be 'normal' and are therefore inadequate and bring our problems on ourselves. If only we'd try harder then we'd be acceptable and not get into so many difficulties.

So true!

Imagine the outrage if this type of thinking applied to some of other EA protected characteristics.

Race - just lighten your skin, then you won't be so black
Sexual Orientation - just try having a relationship with the opposite sex , you might find you like it
Religion (or belief) - your god is crap, my god is much better, just switch your religion as yours has gone out of fashion

I'm sure that NONE of those comments would be tolerated on here and nor should they be because they're abhorrent; however, disability is not afforded the same respect, with autism being fair game for some members to freely make sweeping judgements and armchair diagnoses and MNHQ often minimise subsequent reports.

I agree with these posts so much! Just the other week, in real life, I was told “can’t you do it just this once!” about something that is a real struggle for me. I felt like saying “ffs if I could do it once I’d do it every time and it wouldn’t ever be an issue in my life!”, it’s like they think we struggle with things for fun or convenience.

Seen yet another such thread today, tempted to do a My DP Might Be Neurotypical, How Do I Cope? one in response

@pucelleauxblanchesmains

Seen yet another such thread today, tempted to do a My DP Might Be Neurotypical, How Do I Cope? one in response

Do it!

My DP Might Be Neurotypical, How Do I Cope? one in response

LTB of course 😆😆😆

@BarrowInFurnessRailwayStation

I find the posts somewhat disturbing and it gives me a glimpse into the NT mind and to see how despised we are. It's contributed to the avoidance of NTs I now routinely practice in my everyday life because I now know what they think of me.

It's odd to see NTs on the boards desperately trying not to appear racist, homophobic, otherwise prejudiced etc. whereas that all goes out of the window when it comes to autistics and they're happy to fill their boots hating on a vulnerable minority.

exactly what I was thinking - the second paragraph in spades!

and yes, I'd also love to see how they cope with a 'help I think my DH may be NT' thread pleaaase someone post it - (not feeling very erudite at moment!)

Ah yes, that old 'are they autistic?' chestnut. And it's only ever men that are autistic. Odd that.

In my experience the NT friends I have are those who have ND family members/other friends or work with people who are clearly ND even if undiagnosed. This is an advantage of working in STEM my entire life though.

Just don't want to have to jobseek EVER AGAIN!

And there’s another horrible thread just now.

What the fuck mumsnet why can’t you just not slow ableist posts and be on the ball deleting them

@AchillesPoirot

And there’s another horrible thread just now.

What the fuck mumsnet why can’t you just not slow ableist posts and be on the ball deleting them

Get your finger busy on the report button. Report every single offensive post.

Or, link the thread here and I will do it.

I'm really pleases this board is here but tbh I have been slowing down my MN usage because of shit like this. I find it particularly offensive when people say we shouldn't be offended because they or their family member are "seeking diagnosis" because of those behaviours... just because someone is seeking a diagnosis because of a tired stereotype doesn't give someone the right to trample the concerns of the rest of us.

I had to turn down being a spokesperson at work a few weeks ago when I looked at what was planned for it - typical disability inspo bullshit designed by well-meaning NTs. I have no interest in my image and life story being posted all over LinkedIn with open comments under it, they had not even considered the idea that there may be trolling, comments about not being "really autistic" or the impact of that. Facebook, twitter et al also say these kinds of comments don't break talk guidelines.

I did report it but the person now says they didn’t mean anything by what way they put it. With a nice little passive aggressive smiley too.

It’s so so upsetting.