The Battle Hymn of The Tiger Mother - Webchat with author, Amy Chua - Today 1 - 2pm.

[RachelMumsnet]

The Battle Hymn of the Tiger Mother was met with an avalanche of debate on its publication in January. We're delighted Amy Chua will be joining us at MNHQ on Tuesday 7 June, 1-2pm, to discuss the book and even more that Bloomsbury have agreed to give away 200 copies of The Battle Hymn of the Tiger Mother to Mumsnetters in advance of the discussion.

Amy Chua's daughters, Sophia and Louisa (Lulu) were polite, interesting and helpful, they were two years ahead of their classmates in maths and had exceptional musical abilities. But Sophia and Lulu were never allowed to attend a sleepover, be in a school play, choose their own extracurricular activities, get any grade less than an A, and not be the #1 student in every subject (except gym and drama). And they had to practise their instruments for hours every day, as well as in school breaks and on family holidays.

The Chinese-parenting model certainly seemed to produce results. But what happens when you do not tolerate disobedience and are confronted by a screaming child who would sooner freeze outside in the cold than be forced to play the piano?

In The Battle Hymn of the Tiger Mother, Amy Chua relates her experiences raising her children the 'Chinese way', and how dutiful, patient Sophia flourished under the regime and how tenacious, hot-tempered Lulu rebelled. It was supposed to be a story of how Chinese parents are better at raising kids than Western ones. But instead, it's about a bitter clash of cultures, a fleeting taste of glory, and how you can be humbled by a 13-year-old.

Put the date in your diary to join Amy at lunchtime on 7 June.

For more information about Amy Chua and The Battle Hymn of the Tiger Mother please click here.

@Momshapesworld

Thanks. Are you in London at all? I would love to meet you personally if that is possible. I have always admired Chinese parenting styles (I am from India - recently moved from IL, USA) We presently live in Wimbledon. Let me know if you can visit us for a cup of tea :). You are an inspiration in parenting!

I'm afraid I can't make it to Wimbledon this trip (although I lived in Wimbledon for a summer, believe it or not!)

But I am going to be speaking with Justine Roberts! tomorrow night in London at the Intelligence Squared debate. But we'd really like to have you come along, RachelMumsnet will be in touch to offer you a pair of tickets.

@pinkthechaffinch

Yes, it's much funnier than it came across in the newspaper extracts I'd read.

but where does she get the time to oversee her daughters and write books?

I am super-organised and not very good at relaxing!

@MmeLindor

Hmm, I must admit that I had based my opinion on the book by the reports in the press. I think I will download the book and decide for myself (I presume there is a Kindle edition).

Amy
Could I ask if you were happy with the press reviews? From what other posters have written on this thread, it seems that they concentrated on the shocking and missed out on the amusing parts of the book. Ok, they want to sell newspapers, you and your publisher want to sell books, so the debate was likely positive. I suspect that there are many (like myself) who would not read your book because of the negative press.

I never saw the Wall Street Journal headline 'Why chinese Mothers are Superior'. I do not agree with it and I would never have approved it. The difference between what I intended the book to be and how it's been received are like night and day. I do feel like I've been doing damage limitation for the last six months. But it's been amazing talking to so many people and hearing so many passionately-different points of view. I've learnt a lot. Still am.

@belwiz

Amy, congrats on the huge success of your book. Where will you channel all that emotional energy when your daughters fly off, possibly becoming tiger mothers themselves? Do you think you'll be able to resist being a micromanaging granny tiger?

First of all, I've still got three years with Lulu at home, I just hope I can survive that . And I've got my two dogs, whom I'm missing right now. But the tiger mom of my book is only about 1/5 of the real Amy Chua - I'm also someone who loves big parties, and having drinks with my friends, and hanging out with students. I guess I'll have much more time for all of that then.

I'm 100% certain I won't be a 'micromanaging granny tiger' - my energy level is practically depleted already!

@Meglet

Dear Amy,

How did you fit it all in while holding down your own job?! In your book you mentioned that you were driving your children to violin lessons at weekends, practising after school etc. How much did your husband do, or was it nearly all down to you?

Did you have a cleaner, gardener etc? (Please say 'yes' and I will know you aren't superhuman ).

By the way, I have to say the quote that has stayed with me is "assume strength, not fragility". I need a fridge magnet with that on.

My husband is fantastic and a huge help but I definitely did more of the parenting. And on supermum? Definitely not. Yes I do have a cleaner but despite her best efforts, the house is still a chaotic mess. We also eat pizza. A lot.

Hi Amy,

I would like to be stricter with my daughters and encourage them to have discipline and perseverance with their schoolwork and other pursuits in the future, but I also don't want them to remember me as a stern authority figure that they feared. Does this worry you?

Thank you for the reply, Amy - not to hijack your webchat, but here's something for everyone who's querying the nature/nurture point: Ben Stevenson, who was director of Houston Ballet and a very sought after choreographer worldwide, once said "Talent is really the ability to work." (and he's not a Tiger Mum!)

Hi Amy

personally I think children can have natural inclinations or talents but without discipline and a sense of responsibility it can all be lost, that is where I see the role of the parent at encouraging and expecting their best

question do you think this is more of an immigrant mentality? I find non natives, so to speak, more inclined to value education and effort

I know this sounds like a generalisation but often feels true to me

@Momshapesworld

I think Amy has done a wonderful job of writing down her experiences. I write myself and I should know. I am also a mother of a vivacious, zesty, gifted girl of 6. I love Amy's book and must say that I could not put it down until I finished it in just couple of days of reading - took it with me on my holiday to Scotland and finished it on the train. Although, some of her strategies would not be very nice on my parenting "tricks of the trade" but I understand where she comes from and it is very natural she went to those heights to keep her girls in line and well grounded. It is also true that Asians are different in their parenting styles that most of the Europeans or Americans due to sheer culture and age-old traditional values or notions that have been passed on from generations. It is but hard to let it all go, nevertheless we should always try to strike a balance when bringing up children across continents and I can say that too, because I am an Indian, brought up in a metropolis, lived all over India and moved to the States a decade ago and now living in the UK. It is hard - believe me and there is nothing wrong in learning or unlearning a thing or two from others. Every bit of experience matters in parenting - you never know which trick might do the job! If Amy ever comes to London, I would love to invite her for a cup of tea!

I couldn't agree with you more. I wish I was in London for longer and I'd take you up on that offer of a cup of tea.

@gramercy

Hello, Amy. I really enjoyed the book. I am polishing my claws ready to start a new regime with my son and daughter!

I wonder, did you come across many other "Tiger Mothers" whilst raising your daughters, and if so what were your impressions of them?

I've definitely met the 'sports' version of the tiger mother! My husband is the academic mentor for the Yale men's tennis team and a disproportionate number of those boys definitely had tiger moms or dads. They were just drilling serves and volleys instead of math.

And of course, in the music world, I've met many tiger moms of all ethnicities. It's pretty hard to get into a top orchestra or conservatory without a lot of parental commitment -- although, there's always that completely self-motivated, self-inspired music-loving self-starter who does it all on their own.

@CrapolaDeVille

Do you think cruelty is part of the Chinese culture generally Amy? Or is it a coincidence that this culture also boils animals alive, defeathers birds in a machine whilst alive and is desperately cruel to animals in general? Do you think the fact that criminals have organs harvested, little girls are in dying rooms and the general disregard for human life that seems so prevalent in Chinese culture shaped your personality and narrow view of success?

Do you think the trade off of some children being very narrow in their excellence is worth the cruelty?

I do think that taken to an extreme, Chinese parenting can sometimes be too harsh and too strict. But I definitely do not think that cruelty is intrinsically part of the Chinese culture. I think whether Western or Asian, we as parents all want to raise happy, strong, self-reliant children. We just often have very different ideas about how to do that.

We all bring our cultural baggage to parenting. Some of us are trying to replicate the way our parents raised us, and others may want to do exactly the opposite.

Dear Amy
I really enjoyed your book immensely, and since I have read it I have found myself a lot tougher in my approach to maths and music practice for my eight year old daughter (the piano and cello in her case!).
She finds academic work easy, and so I admit to previously just allowing her to sit quite happily in the top sets at her selective school. But now, I push her just a little bit more, as it is not enough she gets the As without trying!

I do feel, however, that being able to get along with other children is a crucial thing to develop and that it will be imperative as a adult in a job. I expect her to be a 'leader' in whatever she does, but she needs to learn how to do this as a child and so therefore she goes to playdates and sleepovers and performs in school plays. What she's learning from those is helping her quietly influence the other children and ultimately will be as useful as the grade As.

We've all had bosses who cannot master this art - and they have zero respect from their employees. And even if you are the boss, you have to deal with clients or customers or backers or students.
How have you prepared your daughters for life as an adult?

@wordfactory

Hi Amy. I thoroughly enjoyed your book - you write well, with warmth and humour.

Whilst I do not have the time or inclination to be a fully fledged TM, I do look around me and observe that many people in the west, particularly the middle classes, have become complacent, arrogant even. Parents assume their children's place in the world is guaranteed.

Do you agree that many of them are in for a rude awakening?

I do think that our children will inherit a fiercely competitive global world, and we should do our best to prepare them. Western parents worry a lot about their children's self-esteem, but I don't think we do our children a service when we praise them when they know they haven't put in their best effort, or give them trophies when they haven't accomplished anything. The real world is a tough place, and when your children go out there, and don't do so well at school, or don't make the sports team they want, or, god forbid, can't get a job, that's when they really lose self-esteem, and I don't think that's a recipe for happiness.

Hi Amy

How would you deal with a child who stole from you? This is a situation we have experienced with our youngest son.

@MarianneM

Hi Amy,

I would like to be stricter with my daughters and encourage them to have discipline and perseverance with their schoolwork and other pursuits in the future, but I also don't want them to remember me as a stern authority figure that they feared. Does this worry you?

I think this may reflect a real cultural difference. I definitely never parented out of fear of my children's' disapproval. I remember my own mom used to say to me, "I know you may hate me now, but some day you'll appreciate what I was doing." And that turned out to be completely true, in my case.

I feel I have many choices now, and I love my family and my life, and I feel I owe that almost entirely to my parents.

On the other hand, I learned my lesson the hard way with Lulu. I went too far, didn't listen soon enough, and she almost really did hate me. I feel lucky (and grateful to my husband, and actually, my own mother) that I pulled back in time. In retrospect, I think a lot of my going so extreme with Lulu when she was 13 had to do with my sister Katrin's illness - it was at the exact same time that Lulu was rebelling, Katrin got leukemia and had to have a bone marrow transplant. I was devastated, and it was frustrating not to be able to control anything in my life at that point.

WHen I was growing up - an only child - my parents ensured I had a lot of 'empty' time. It wasn't just to build my creativity - and my friends and I could entertain ourselves for ours with a few cardboard boxes - but I think it is actually an important part of self-discipline.

One of the things I did to fill the time was read, copiously, alone. When I went to university there were huge swathes of the day when I would be alone in a room with a lot of reading to do and no-one telling me to do it, and it felt entirely natural to me. Working from home today, the habit is still there.

So I guess my question is, surely a better test of self-discipline is what kids do when they're NOT being taught anything, than when they do?

@YoureaKITTY

How would you feel if at uni your daughter discovers a passion for charity work, leaves uni and has a happy but not wealthy existence working with disabled children? Would you feel like all your efforts had gone to waste? I guess what I'm trying to figure out is how you measure success - is it a happy life, a life with a prestigious career, a life where you can afford to buy a nice house...

Asking because that's what I did - had stellar grades, went to Cambridge to do economics, did some volunteering on the side and it turned into my life's passion :) Meanwhile half of my graduating year became investment bankers (and I'm not exaggerating there, I have the stats!)

I would be absolutely ecstatic if that happened, and wouldn't feel at all that my efforts had gone to waste. A lot of people misunderstand the message of my book. If I had a magic button and could choose either happiness or success for my daughters, I would choose happiness in a second - that's a no-brainer. I just think it's much more complicated than that. I don't believe that if you tell your children, "pursue your passions, do whatever you want", that that will necessarily lead to their being happy adults.

I applaud you for having the courage to change your path and pursue your life passion. I wish the same for my daughters, I just want to make sure that they're prepared and will have the options.

Why isn't anyone asking me about biscuits?? I prepared so hard for this

Thanks Amy for rattling through so many of the questions & giving 'decent' answers. Really enjoying this thread.

@munstersmum

Thanks Amy for rattling through so many of the questions & giving 'decent' answers. Really enjoying this thread.

Thank you so much!

@munstersmum

Hi Amy

I found your book interesting & thought provoking. And big thanks for it being one of the free copies

My question is - When the time hopefully comes and you become a grandparent, do you see your own perspective on parenting softening with a new generation? ie Can you see yourself as a grandmother who says 'forget music practice let's go off to the park and kick leaves' or ever suggesting to one of your daughters that they 'ease off' as your mother did to you.

I shall also be watching the answer to SpookTs question as a version of that was going to be mine.

If my own parents are any evidence, I'm going to be a complete pushover. My own parents were so strict with me, and all they can with my daughters is offer them ice cream and presents. They're always telling me to go easier on the girls - I think that's interesting!

Hi Amy, what are your thoughts on biscuits - have you been offered any? :-)

Yeah go on then, since you're dying to tell us about biscuits .

@AllTheYoungDoods

WHen I was growing up - an only child - my parents ensured I had a lot of 'empty' time. It wasn't just to build my creativity - and my friends and I could entertain ourselves for ours with a few cardboard boxes - but I think it is actually an important part of self-discipline.

One of the things I did to fill the time was read, copiously, alone. When I went to university there were huge swathes of the day when I would be alone in a room with a lot of reading to do and no-one telling me to do it, and it felt entirely natural to me. Working from home today, the habit is still there.

So I guess my question is, surely a better test of self-discipline is what kids do when they're NOT being taught anything, than when they do?

I actually totally agree, that having down time for kids to read alone, and just think alone, walk around by themselves is really important. I do worry that our kids are over-scheduled these days. I feel like when I was in high school I had so much free time!

Kids these days seem to have barely any time for sleep between school work, school activities, sports, (not to mention all the scheduled play dates and sleepovers! By the way, Lulu has been to four sleepovers in the last two months and in case you think I'm a convert, I'm really not happy about this at all!)

@southofthethames

Hi Amy, what are your thoughts on biscuits - have you been offered any? :-)

My favorite biscuit is white chocolate chip macademia nut cookie - and no, but MNHQ are scrambling to find some biscuits for me now!

Also since I did my preparation, my favorite film is Billy Elliot