The Battle Hymn of The Tiger Mother - Webchat with author, Amy Chua - Today 1 - 2pm.

[RachelMumsnet]

The Battle Hymn of the Tiger Mother was met with an avalanche of debate on its publication in January. We're delighted Amy Chua will be joining us at MNHQ on Tuesday 7 June, 1-2pm, to discuss the book and even more that Bloomsbury have agreed to give away 200 copies of The Battle Hymn of the Tiger Mother to Mumsnetters in advance of the discussion.

Amy Chua's daughters, Sophia and Louisa (Lulu) were polite, interesting and helpful, they were two years ahead of their classmates in maths and had exceptional musical abilities. But Sophia and Lulu were never allowed to attend a sleepover, be in a school play, choose their own extracurricular activities, get any grade less than an A, and not be the #1 student in every subject (except gym and drama). And they had to practise their instruments for hours every day, as well as in school breaks and on family holidays.

The Chinese-parenting model certainly seemed to produce results. But what happens when you do not tolerate disobedience and are confronted by a screaming child who would sooner freeze outside in the cold than be forced to play the piano?

In The Battle Hymn of the Tiger Mother, Amy Chua relates her experiences raising her children the 'Chinese way', and how dutiful, patient Sophia flourished under the regime and how tenacious, hot-tempered Lulu rebelled. It was supposed to be a story of how Chinese parents are better at raising kids than Western ones. But instead, it's about a bitter clash of cultures, a fleeting taste of glory, and how you can be humbled by a 13-year-old.

Put the date in your diary to join Amy at lunchtime on 7 June.

For more information about Amy Chua and The Battle Hymn of the Tiger Mother please click here.

I read the reviews by other Chinese American mothers who found your book dreadful and assisting in perpetuating terrible things about Chinese parents, the conditional and cruel love that is thrown at their children. I found the book made sweeping generalisations about Western parenting, almost racist in tone. Anyone who has to write a book about how cruel they were to their children is misguided and attention seeking.

How on earth to justify the way you have made so many American Chinese mothers angry?

Don't you think your children would have a better book in them about how your parenting has affected them?

crapola i agree entirely with your post, i too wondered how one can get away with writing a book about (mentally) abusive parenting, receive praise and be credited with a 'sense of humour'

Following on from what sleepwombat wrote below, do you agree that when you talk about "Chinese parenting" you are actually talking about a certain class of Chinese? I can't believe most Chinese people have the time, energy and finances to devote so much of their time to their children's extracurricular activities.

By the way I loved the book, found it very funny - and, thanks to you, decided to start getting my daughter to read to me when she is up at 6am rather than watch tv as usual. Unfortunately that only lasted one morning - I am obviously not "Tiger mother" material.

The book was actually a lot more dull than I thought it would be. Reading about endless violin practice. I did nearly give up on it. But after about a hundred pages it did open up (a bit). - if I was that interested in violin practice, I'd be playing the violin.

The quote that sticks in my mind though is:
"one of the worst things you can do for your child's self esteem is to let them give up. On the flip side, there's nothing better for building confidence than learning you can do something you thought you couldn't."

I bought Amy's book after hearing it on Radio 4 and thoroughly enjoyed it, a painfully funny read. My own parents were encouraging but laid back and it was easy for my sis and I to be lazy. I'm trying to be encouraging but more disciplined with my dd but I don't think I could be as focussed as Amy.

I would please echo earlier questions as I was left wondering, how did Amy fit it all in and pursue her own career?!

I showed DS Amy's 'rules' on page 1 in a bookshop and he said he'd quite like that! Oh well.

One point on the 'only violin and piano allowed' bit. Surely if EVERYONE does this then there will be no orchestras for her DCs to play in?

Hi Amy,

I just wanted to say that I loved your husband's Freud books. When I started your book I didn't realise that your Jed was the Jed Rubenfeld.

I really enjoyed your book and found it very interesting and funny too.

After reading the article in the Times about Chinese parenting compared to Western (i.e. anything less than an A is unacceptable) I was surprised how much I enjoyed the book. It was an interesting read. Agree, sweeping statements re Western parenting, but the author herself alludes to the fact they are at some point.

It is an interesting theory - if you believe your child can do better they can find it in themselves to. I take it Amy would not be heard saying "DS, what a lovely picture, I see squiggles of blue and yellow and green!" to her 4 year old, as suggested by How To Talk.

I have a question though, how can you never accept less than an A grade? Despite all the pushing in the world some children will not have the ability to attain that grade. How does this fit in with the "Chinese method" of parenting?

I've noticed that here the West generally we believe ability has a ceiling, some 'average' children won't be capable of a B or an A etc as an entry level grade in GCSE whatever their preparations. Their 'IQ' will limit them, something they are born with and can do little to change. Severe learning impairments aside I believe most can improve incrementally and all can achieve more than they might imagine. We continue to talk about children who are working beyond their ability etc, this isn't seen as a good idea. In primary school children generally work at 'ability' tables and we tend to think in terms of ability rather than current attainment. We are an ability led cultur in the West I think. We also see 'ability' in quite narrow terms and believe an IQ test (which largely only tests logical thinking type skills) is an accurate dipstick measurement. If you 'fail' in the West it's because you weren't clever enough, our self worth is tied up in our academic 'ability', if you 'fail' in Asia you weren't working hard enough.

I thought these comments by Guy Claxton are interesting and were reflected in your book, would you agree?: 'The learning of Asian children is traditionally 'supported' with a mixture of encouragement, punishment and ridicule. Children are treated harshly...if they do not work hard, in a way a Westerner would consider 'Dickensian' and harmful to their development. However the deeply embedded sense that such treatment is 'for your own good' and the weaker cultural relationship between 'ability' and self worth, means that Asian children rarely show any lasting effects in terms of resentment or an undermining of 'self esteem'.

Living for a time in Asia and amongst a wide circle of Asian friends in the UK I've noticed a different attitude. It seems it's thought that through a mastery of technique innovation can come about. Excellent results are possible and expected. Culturally values are different. It's interesting many believe Asian children are genetically more intelligent, including many teachers I've come across over the years. I agree with Guy Claxton says 'Asian children's relative success on traditional school curricula, for example, is the outcome of whole set of beliefs in the value of education, prosperity and family pride, and their interconnections. A child's performance at school brings credit or shame to the whole family, how therefore invest considerable time and effort in ensuring the child's success. The extraordinary level of achievement of Indochinese refugees in American schools, despite arriving with no English language, is testament to the power of these family attitudes'.

I've read your books and your reviews and some commentators have said it's no surprise your girls did so well as their IQs of 150 (?) made success possible.

My question is would you agree with the above? I've noticed that it's far more possible than it should be to ensure your child's success at school. A child can get lost in a large class, those parents that help with reading, support writing and instill a positive mindset in their child early on tend to end up with a child the school and the teachers believe is 'smarter' to begin with. Once labelled 'bright' a child rarely loses that label and this can bring future positive benefits.

Do you think cruelty is part of the Chinese culture generally Amy? Or is it a coincidence that this culture also boils animals alive, defeathers birds in a machine whilst alive and is desperately cruel to animals in general? Do you think the fact that criminals have organs harvested, little girls are in dying rooms and the general disregard for human life that seems so prevalent in Chinese culture shaped your personality and narrow view of success?

Do you think the trade off of some children being very narrow in their excellence is worth the cruelty?

Hi Amy.
I thoroughly enjoyed your book - you write well, with warmth and humour.

Whilst I do not have the time or inclination to be a fully fledged TM, I do look around me and observe that many people in the west, particularly the middle classes, have become complacent, arrogant even. Parents assume their children's place in the world is guaranteed.

Do you agree that many of them are in for a rude awakening?

Hi Amy

I enjoyed your book but don't think my own parenting methods could ever be as extreme or focused as that of the TM. Personally, I am inclined more towards a parenting method which combines warmth and affection with behavioural discipline (as opposed to psychological control, or control through guilt and shame) but I don't advocate for a second that there is any absolute or correct way of parenting. We are all different, as are our children.

I wonder, how much of your daughters' personalities and attitudes do you think have been been shaped by their father's rather more laid back parenting style? Reading between the lines, he seems to have demonstrated more warmth and gentle encouragement - extremely relevant in my view - but a relatively small portion of the book focuses on his parenting philosophy and influence over his daughters.

I've read this book - it is fascinating and disturbing at the same time. While I admire the work ethic message, there is something horribly wrong when your child starts gnawing the piano in frustration, or you shut them outside in sub zero temperatures. I'd like to ask Amy about nature v nurture. Another American academic has pointed out that children of two Harvard (?) professors (as Amy's children are) are bound to be bright. What role does she think genes play in academically successful children such as her own - an issue she doesn't touch on in her book, and one which would imply her techniques weren't really necessary.

I haven't read the book (but from reading this thread, would quite like to). One question for you: do you think your daughters will be tiger mothers when they grow up?

I have also read the book and it found it fascinating. I do agree that some parents can settle for less with their children and in turn I wish that my parents had been more strict with me as I felt like I had too much free choice when I was younger and I ended up not putting my mind to anything. Whilst I think you worked your children extremely hard, you clearly got results and your girls seemed to thoroughly enjoy when they had their big moments of success.

I definitely found it thought provoking and I admire your dedication. When my little one is growing up I will definitely remember what I read in your book about children not being as fragile as society wants you to believe.

Do you think that you would have had the same difficulties with Lulu if she was raised in China surrounded my similar parenting styles rather than in the US where you were going against the "western" model?

Hypothetical situation but I felt it important to ask; Would you agree with / enjoy seeing your Grandchildren "parented" in this way by your own daughters and their partners, or do you feel some compassion will overcome you when you witness it from another perspective - that of a hopefully nurturing and kind Grandmother?

Hi Amy

I found your book interesting & thought provoking. And big thanks for it being one of the free copies

My question is - When the time hopefully comes and you become a grandparent, do you see your own perspective on parenting softening with a new generation? ie Can you see yourself as a grandmother who says 'forget music practice let's go off to the park and kick leaves' or ever suggesting to one of your daughters that they 'ease off' as your mother did to you.

I shall also be watching the answer to SpookTs question as a version of that was going to be mine.

Bit of a x post with Scarlett there !

?Haven?t we had enough of the over-pressured, guilt-ridden Asian-American college students committing suicide and acting out?? Journalism professor Betty Ming Liu wrote in a blog post entitled ?Parents like Amy Chua are the reason why Asian-Americans like me are in therapy.?

What do you say to this?

How would you feel if at uni your daughter discovers a passion for charity work, leaves uni and has a happy but not wealthy existence working with disabled children? Would you feel like all your efforts had gone to waste? I guess what I'm trying to figure out is how you measure success - is it a happy life, a life with a prestigious career, a life where you can afford to buy a nice house...

Asking because that's what I did - had stellar grades, went to Cambridge to do economics, did some volunteering on the side and it turned into my life's passion :) Meanwhile half of my graduating year became investment bankers (and I'm not exaggerating there, I have the stats!)

Hi Amy,
You did not mention in your book when did you have time for yourself (working on your articles and lectures) and also about the household chores like cleaning, cooking, feading your kids, putting them to bed (at what time did they go to bed and at what time they would wake up?).
Thanks!

We're pleased to say that Amy is here in the building, so we'll be kicking of in a minute or two.

Hello everyone, thank you all for joining in! I'm pleased so many people have read the book, and I'm looking forward to getting stuck in.

@ppeatfruit

Ms chua what would you do if your children were dyslexic or hyper sensitive or autistic or worse? You cannot assume they are able to cope with such unfeeling parenting.

I don't think that any children can cope with unfeeling parenting.
Jokes aside, for me parenting is not about A+ and gold medals, it's not about achievements, it's about believing in your child more than anyone and helping them be the best that they can be. My younger sister Cindy has Downs syndrome and nobody expected her to get a Phd or go to college but I remember my mom spending hours with her teaching her to tie shoe-laces, teaching her multiplication and practising the piano. Today Cindy works at Walmart, lives independently and is engaged to be married. Her favourite thing is to perform piano. She and my mom have a great relationship.

@Bonsoir

Dear Amy Chua

I read your book with interest. I also live in a mixed culture family (English-Christian me and French-Jewish DP), in Paris, and am very frequently confronted with higher/lower parenting standards than my own, and with cultural/social emphasis on particular skills that is different to those I was brought up with.

Having read your book, I am not won over by your "Chinese" emphasis on piano/violin at the expense of gym, drama and sleepovers! In our highly stressed, overachieving societies, I think we often forget to teach the skills of relaxed self-expression and that we forget this at the expense of our mental health. Any thoughts?

I think Asia and the west have opposite problems. Asian parenting can be too harsh and too stifling. In the west we've gone to far with permissiveness and indulgence and worrying obsessively about our children's psyches. I think we should presume strength rather than fragility in our children but it's all about balance. As you know already, I let Lulu give up the violin and pursue her passion for tennis. And she's had FOUR sleepovers in the last month (something I'm not altogether happy with).