The Battle Hymn of The Tiger Mother - Webchat with author, Amy Chua - Today 1 - 2pm.

[RachelMumsnet]

The Battle Hymn of the Tiger Mother was met with an avalanche of debate on its publication in January. We're delighted Amy Chua will be joining us at MNHQ on Tuesday 7 June, 1-2pm, to discuss the book and even more that Bloomsbury have agreed to give away 200 copies of The Battle Hymn of the Tiger Mother to Mumsnetters in advance of the discussion.

Amy Chua's daughters, Sophia and Louisa (Lulu) were polite, interesting and helpful, they were two years ahead of their classmates in maths and had exceptional musical abilities. But Sophia and Lulu were never allowed to attend a sleepover, be in a school play, choose their own extracurricular activities, get any grade less than an A, and not be the #1 student in every subject (except gym and drama). And they had to practise their instruments for hours every day, as well as in school breaks and on family holidays.

The Chinese-parenting model certainly seemed to produce results. But what happens when you do not tolerate disobedience and are confronted by a screaming child who would sooner freeze outside in the cold than be forced to play the piano?

In The Battle Hymn of the Tiger Mother, Amy Chua relates her experiences raising her children the 'Chinese way', and how dutiful, patient Sophia flourished under the regime and how tenacious, hot-tempered Lulu rebelled. It was supposed to be a story of how Chinese parents are better at raising kids than Western ones. But instead, it's about a bitter clash of cultures, a fleeting taste of glory, and how you can be humbled by a 13-year-old.

Put the date in your diary to join Amy at lunchtime on 7 June.

For more information about Amy Chua and The Battle Hymn of the Tiger Mother please click here.

@FinnFinn

I have also read the book and it found it fascinating. I do agree that some parents can settle for less with their children and in turn I wish that my parents had been more strict with me as I felt like I had too much free choice when I was younger and I ended up not putting my mind to anything. Whilst I think you worked your children extremely hard, you clearly got results and your girls seemed to thoroughly enjoy when they had their big moments of success.

I definitely found it thought provoking and I admire your dedication. When my little one is growing up I will definitely remember what I read in your book about children not being as fragile as society wants you to believe.

Do you think that you would have had the same difficulties with Lulu if she was raised in China surrounded my similar parenting styles rather than in the US where you were going against the "western" model?

You might be interested to know that the way I parent would not even be considered remotely strict in China. Between school and tutors, kids in China often study from 7am to 10pm. Grades are publicly posted, and they've never heard of Western-style sleepovers and playdates.

In fact, my book is being marketed in exactly the opposite way in China. Amusingly, the title in Chinese is "Parenting by a Yale Law Professor: Raising Kids in America." Whereas I'm known as the mean strict mom in the West, I'm essentially the 'cuddly' mom in China! The Chinese Marie-Claire magazine asked me to give tips to their readers on "How to be friends with your daughters".

But to answer your question, I might have had the same difficulties with Lulu. I recently spoke to 40 Chinese women, and they told me they were all struggling with similar issues -- how to reconcile the individual personality of your child with wanting to prepare them for the future.

Hello Amy, thanks for coming on.

I was interested to see that, in the book, you describe yourself as being hampered, in your education and early career, by an incapacity to think creatively. Do you acknowledge that this is a failing of the parenting approach you yourself received, and (in part) endorse.

My second question is related to that 'in part' bit: I enjoyed your self-deprecation, but was ultimately frustrated by it. I felt that you hedge your bets in pursuit of narrative (and headlines). This was particularly true in the final chapters, when you appear to acknowledge that your controlling qualities are still to the fore. So - do you in fact think your ethics and/or philosophy were wholly wrong, or do you think you simply made tactical errors which could be improved if you had a third pass at parenting?

Third question (I know, sorry).
The idea that the child is the extension of the self - widely held in non-Western cultures - is entirely opposed to Western thinking. We'd have to change the whole course of post-Enlightenment thought about the self (self-determination, individualism) for your system to work on anything but first/second generation immigrants. This is unlikely to happen, so ultimately, can any of your ideas fruitfully be applied here?

Finally and pedantically: You are unequivocal that Chinese children are not objectively unhappier than Western ones - but I was unclear about whether you were referring to children in China, or those of Chinese heritage living in Western countries. If the former, then the different weights given to the notion of happiness and self-agency within these respective cultures would surely make any objective comparison impossible. If the latter, then the fact (which you acknowledge) that third-generation immigrant parents tend abandon the parenting methods of their own childhood must surely prove you wrong?

@lionheart

Dear Amy,

The passage where you say you "decided to write an epic novel" and cite Maxine Hong Kingston, Amy Tan and Jung Chang as women who "all beat me to it with their books" made me laugh.

But it also made me realise that the question of how gender is linked to achievement/expectation doesn't seem to come up as an issue in your book as it does in all these others.

So I wondered whether you had any thoughts on this (would you have done things the same way if you had two sons?)

I honestly don't know. I've got two daughters and I'm one of four girls. Many people have told me categorically that tiger parenting would not work with a son. Just as many people have told me it absolutely does.

@spooktrain

I haven't read the book (but from reading this thread, would quite like to). One question for you: do you think your daughters will be tiger mothers when they grow up?

Interestingly, my daughters were asked this very question when they were interviewed by The Guardian. I held my breath, terrified to see how they would answer! Sophia is 18 now, and Lulu is 15. Surprisingly, both girls said that they would be strict moms when they grow up too. But they both said that they would be much more socially liberal, and let their kids go to a lot more sleepovers and playdates!

Hi Amy. I read your book when it first came out as I was intrigued by all af the hype in the media. I'm happy to say that most of the coverage in the media seemed to have spectacularly missed the point by labelling you as almost abusive, I saw a far warmer and self deprecating parent in your writing.

My 8 year old son listened to Radio 4 when it was book of the week (he was off school with flu) and also enjoyed it. I try to be a more relaxed parent, as I know that it would be easy for me to push my children and expect them to be brilliant just because they have more opportunities than I did. However my son actually rather liked your style, and said that he wished I'd nag him a bit more with his piano practice!

So my question is, to what extent do you think children themselves actually want a controlling parent? Do you think that they feel safer within an environment with strictly enforced boundaries? Or is it always going to be a battle?

@superoz

I enjoyed this book, I had already seen the comments quoted in the newspapers before but after reading in full the context completely changes, most of the time she is being ironic and self deprecating. There are many things mentioned in the book that I can relate to and understand as I myself am of chinese descent, I do have some very light shades of Tiger Mother in me which seems to be inbuilt behaviour.

I do think that in Amy's experience, despite not allowing her daughters to have sleepovers, watch tv, have other hobbies other than music etc - she still spent time with her kids(even if it was "drilling" them), went on holidays, had birthday parties etc.

My question for Amy is that although this approach to parenting results in making academically successful students, does she think that this can result in social skills and creativity being neglected? And that this can hold them back in adulthood?
I know many children whose chinese parents were too busy working and just wanted their children to focus on academics and nothing else, leaving out the holidays, birthdays etc.

I definitely think that excessive discipline, rote-learning and obedience can hamper social skills and creativity. China recognises this weakness and is trying to foster creativity and independence by learning from the west. I tend to think that in the west, our problems are more of too little structure. We're pretty good at encouraging independence and free spirits. And maybe a little weak on self-discipline.

Hi Amy
I was horrified by the articles accompanying the release of the book that painted you/it as being very cruel. When I actually read the book and put the excerpts in context, they were all quite tame - and actually EVERY mother has their extreme moments, even the laid back ones. Some fellow mums secretly said to me they thought it was very good!
My questions:1) do you have a lot of musical training yourself? Only that I think many parents with no music training would like to help their children practice but have no idea what to do or how much to expect. 2)did your daughters go to private or state school for most of their schooling in New Haven? It's in reference to your point about whether you would agree with the child or the teacher when there is a dispute - as in some schools, it is very often the child who is right rather than the teacher (eg when a fact or spelling is taught wrongly).
Thank you for coming and wishing you and your family all the best.
SOTT

@atswimtwolengths

I got a free copy of the book - thanks very much! I really enjoyed reading it, albeit with my mouth open for much of it.

I'd like to ask two questions:

1. If you couldn't have children, how do you think your own career would have developed? Would you have put your energies into raising your husband's profile (sorry, but I doubt he'd put up with it!) or would you be President by now? Did you ever think (before getting pregnant) what your career would entail? You seem to have planned your children's lives with military precision - would you have applied this to your own?

2. Where did you find the time to do all that you did with the children? You say a lot of the time you were travelling - how did you know they were working in your absence? You write as though you were a stay at home mum, but you had your own career. When did you do that work?

Loved, LOVED you blaming your husband for not having plans for the dog!

1. I'm definitely a Type A person but actually it took me a long time to find the right career. Corporate law was NOT for me and I'm lucky that Yale Law School actually allows me to focus on globalisation and ethnic conflict, the things that most interest me.
2. I was a lot younger when I was parenting my young daughters and I do get exhausted reading my own book. I'm lucky that in my job I had a lot of flexibility with my hours so I could spend time with my kids. I also did most of my academic writing between 6-8am.

@wheelsonthebus

I've read this book - it is fascinating and disturbing at the same time. While I admire the work ethic message, there is something horribly wrong when your child starts gnawing the piano in frustration, or you shut them outside in sub zero temperatures. I'd like to ask Amy about nature v nurture. Another American academic has pointed out that children of two Harvard (?) professors (as Amy's children are) are bound to be bright. What role does she think genes play in academically successful children such as her own - an issue she doesn't touch on in her book, and one which would imply her techniques weren't really necessary.

Just to be clear, I never put Lulu in sub-zero temperature! If you remember that story, I threatened 'if you don't stop screaming and behave,I'm going to put you out.' And then Lulu stepped outside herself, and faced me defiantly!

The book is supposed to be funny, and filled with zany showdowns in which my daughters always call my bluff. I can't threaten them with anything which they haven't got an answer for.

About the piano; Sophia actually thinks it's a funny story. My husband thinks it's similar to boys who break their baseball bats or smash their racquets in frustration - it's not so different.

As to your question, I think both nature and nurture clearly play a role. My own husband was completely self-motivated, although he wishes that his parents had not given him a choice about whether he wanted to learn a musical instrument, or play with his friends. He chose playing with friends, and now regrets it.

Hi Amy, Good Afternoon!
I love your book and bought it from Amazon last month. finished it in just two installments of reading -
How do you know when its laziness, or when it is lack of interest. How far should we push them for everyday practice? (piano/violin)- seems to me like everyday is a struggle (mine is in between Sophie and Lulu in characteristics when it comes to music practice) - my 6 year old daughter is a brilliant child with a reading capacity of a 5th grader, excels at art equally at Math and Science and I dont want her wasted. What should I do?

Gah I forgot my key one! Isn't this type of parenting only possible for people with incomes waaay above those of even the upper-middle class here (let alone those on the median wage)?

While I was astonished and awed by your capacity for pain, it still seemed that much of your routine would not have been possible without domestic staff and vast amounts of disposable income for tutoring/travelling etc.

@onebatmother

Hello Amy, thanks for coming on.

I was interested to see that, in the book, you describe yourself as being hampered, in your education and early career, by an incapacity to think creatively. Do you acknowledge that this is a failing of the parenting approach you yourself received, and (in part) endorse.

My second question is related to that 'in part' bit: I enjoyed your self-deprecation, but was ultimately frustrated by it. I felt that you hedge your bets in pursuit of narrative (and headlines). This was particularly true in the final chapters, when you appear to acknowledge that your controlling qualities are still to the fore. So - do you in fact think your ethics and/or philosophy were wholly wrong, or do you think you simply made tactical errors which could be improved if you had a third pass at parenting?

Third question (I know, sorry).
The idea that the child is the extension of the self - widely held in non-Western cultures - is entirely opposed to Western thinking. We'd have to change the whole course of post-Enlightenment thought about the self (self-determination, individualism) for your system to work on anything but first/second generation immigrants. This is unlikely to happen, so ultimately, can any of your ideas fruitfully be applied here?

Finally and pedantically: You are unequivocal that Chinese children are not objectively unhappier than Western ones - but I was unclear about whether you were referring to children in China, or those of Chinese heritage living in Western countries. If the former, then the different weights given to the notion of happiness and self-agency within these respective cultures would surely make any objective comparison impossible. If the latter, then the fact (which you acknowledge) that third-generation immigrant parents tend abandon the parenting methods of their own childhood must surely prove you wrong?

I do think that an excessive emphasis on discipline, obeying authority and rote memorisation can stifle creativity. China recognises that it has these problems and is trying to learn creativity from the West. On the other hand, I tend to think this is not the problem that we have in the West. In the West we are really good at encouraging independence, irreverence, imagination, initiative, and "thinking outside the box". Since China's trying to learn from us, perhaps we should see if there is anything that we might be able to learn from China, and one thing that the Asian nations do well is instilling in young children a sense of discipline and focus. I think this could be a valuable skill for our kids in the West, especially in this age of media bombardment, where it's so easy to be distracted by Facebook, texting, iPods, etc....

On the second question, I hate to disappoint, but while I have many regrets and much of the book is about my mistakes and making fun of myself if I had to do it all over again, I would basically raise my two girls the same way, with some adjustments. I'm not saying that it's the right approach for everyone, or that it's a better approach, but I'm really proud of the girls I raised (it's not so much about their achievements, but they are both kind, generous, independent, strong-willed girls with great senses of humour) and I'm proud of my relationship with them.
Believe it or not, we're actually really close! Other moms often have to ask me what's going on at the parties all the kids are attending. I'll try to respond to your other questions later on.

@Momshapesworld

Hi Amy, Good Afternoon! I love your book and bought it from Amazon last month. finished it in just two installments of reading - How do you know when its laziness, or when it is lack of interest. How far should we push them for everyday practice? (piano/violin)- seems to me like everyday is a struggle (mine is in between Sophie and Lulu in characteristics when it comes to music practice) - my 6 year old daughter is a brilliant child with a reading capacity of a 5th grader, excels at art equally at Math and Science and I dont want her wasted. What should I do?

Your daughter sounds great, and I'm the last person to be giving parenting advice! I guess I think that the most important thing is to watch carefully and listen (I would never have insisted that Lulu keep playing the violin for so long if she hadn't played so emotionally and musically, clearly loving the music. It was always a love-hate relationship for her)!

No one knows your daughter better than you, but to me it doesn't sound like she's lazy at all.

Hello, Amy. I really enjoyed the book. I am polishing my claws ready to start a new regime with my son and daughter!

I wonder, did you come across many other "Tiger Mothers" whilst raising your daughters, and if so what were your impressions of them?

@onebatmother

Gah I forgot my key one! Isn't this type of parenting only possible for people with incomes waaay above those of even the upper-middle class here (let alone those on the median wage)?

While I was astonished and awed by your capacity for pain, it still seemed that much of your routine would not have been possible without domestic staff and vast amounts of disposable income for tutoring/travelling etc.

Yes, this is an important one! I absolutely do not think tiger parenting is income related. But I also think that there are many different ways of being a tiger mom. One of the most inspiring emails I got was from someone who wrote, "I'm a single mom. I'm Irish-Polish-American, and I'm a cop. I also work two jobs. I couldn't possibly do violin or piano or math with my kids, but I still think I'm a tiger mom. When I would drag myself home at 8pm, I would always check my daughters' homework, and tests, and ask them why they missed this or that. I was also completely on top of their friends. I was known in the neighborhood THE MEAN MOM. The reason for this is that I got pregnant at 15, and I didn't want the same misery for my daughters, and I'm proud because I broke the cycle. Both my daughters are in college now."

@Dunlurking

Hi Amy. I really enjoyed your book. I grew up in a Malaysian Chinese community and could totally understand the cultural influences on how you brought up your girls. I was surprised by how hard the life of a music (Chinese) Mum is, but could recognise much of your behaviour as I have dipped in and out of being a ballet Mum.

But what I would like to ask it how you view the impact of strict attitudes on creativity? Do you think children?s creativity could be suppressed, and how did you cultivate your own children?s creativity?

A very good family friend was an English teacher for years in Singapore, teaching at 'A' level and Oxbridge level, and much appreciated by his pupils. But he had to fight constantly to get his pupils to think freely, and outside the box, in order for them to reach the Oxford University English degree entrance exam levels of thinking. (There is a poem about him from one of his pupils who went on to Oxford and then the USA here if anyone is interested.) He was deported from Singapore airport when he last tried to visit ex pupils ? viewed as too radical for this highly regimented Chinese community!

My kids grew up in a hybrid household. My husband is Jewish American and he was constantly bringing balance to the family encouraging the girls to question authority, think independently and constantly ask why. I do think that strict parenting versus creativity is a false dichotomy. You need both, especially in areas like maths and music. You need basic skills first. Before you can come up with string theory or the theory of relativity, you need to be able to multiply. Really well. Before you can play a Mozart concerto emotionally, you need to be able to play in tune. You need to know the box before you can think outside it.

Thanks. Are you in London at all? I would love to meet you personally if that is possible. I have always admired Chinese parenting styles (I am from India - recently moved from IL, USA) We presently live in Wimbledon. Let me know if you can visit us for a cup of tea :). You are an inspiration in parenting!

@JemimaMop

Hi Amy. I read your book when it first came out as I was intrigued by all af the hype in the media. I'm happy to say that most of the coverage in the media seemed to have spectacularly missed the point by labelling you as almost abusive, I saw a far warmer and self deprecating parent in your writing.

My 8 year old son listened to Radio 4 when it was book of the week (he was off school with flu) and also enjoyed it. I try to be a more relaxed parent, as I know that it would be easy for me to push my children and expect them to be brilliant just because they have more opportunities than I did. However my son actually rather liked your style, and said that he wished I'd nag him a bit more with his piano practice!

So my question is, to what extent do you think children themselves actually want a controlling parent? Do you think that they feel safer within an environment with strictly enforced boundaries? Or is it always going to be a battle?

First, thank you so much for your nice words, and great question -- sometimes I think that we as moms just can't win! For me it's still an ongoing day-to-day struggle with my feisty Lulu (and Sophia's not always so easy either)! Most of time Lulu still thinks I'm too strict and demanding. But other times, I'll give in and loosen up (maybe just out of exhaustion), and she'll say 'What's wrong with you? Don't you care any more?'

@StellaRose11

From personal and observational experience, the typical Chinese or Asian parent treatment is very damaging to self esteem and psychological health. I don't need to read the book to realise the results. If a child rebels or asserts themselves, it's because they are 'bad', if they obey and are dutifully and robotically 'wonderful', they aren't being their true selves and sooner or later the pressure cooker will explode.

Pressure-cooker parenting is a recipe for disaster. You might be surprised that my book celebrates rebellion. I disobeyed my father, my daughter Lulu is a heroine in her rebellion and at the end of the book, I reveal that my father was the black sheep in his family, a rebel who hated his strict Chinese mother. As soon as he could, he left his Chinese family and never once looked back. And my father is my idol.

@MaeMobley

Hi Amy,

I just wanted to say that I loved your husband's Freud books. When I started your book I didn't realise that your Jed was the Jed Rubenfeld.

I really enjoyed your book and found it very interesting and funny too.

I love my husband's books too! I think that his new one, The Death Instinct, is even better than The Interpretation of Murder -- check it out!

@darleneoconnor

I showed DS Amy's 'rules' on page 1 in a bookshop and he said he'd quite like that! Oh well.

One point on the "only violin and piano allowed" bit. Surely if EVERYONE does this then there will be no orchestras for her DCs to play in?

Your DS sounds like my kind of kid! With "only violin and piano", I was actually being a bit tongue-in-cheek. I personally love the French horn (no, really!) and cello, but the "violin or piano only" rule was applied to me strictly, by my own parents. I actually wanted to play the flute when I was little, but my dad wouldn't let me.

I'm really not quite sure why traditional Asian parents favor the piano and violin, and to a certain extent, the cello, above all else. Of course, the big point of my book is that I ultimately learned the importance of giving my daughters the freedom to pursue their own passions.

@sleepywombat

I have just read an article about how academic & financial success is largely due to genetics. It cited studies of identical twins separated at birth who fared the same in life regardless of their upbringing & of unrelated children raised together whose outcomes were no more similar than those of strangers.

I do wonder if Amy Chua had simply chilled out & had fun with her daughters, they would have been just as successful & happier too.

My MIL is from a poor, rural Chinese family & certainly doesn't conform to the Tiger Mother stereotype. She had very little schooling herself, as had to work to help the family. She never pushed DH or SIL at all (couldn't afford musical instruments/tuition, unable to help with homework etc), but is immensely proud of their achievements (still has school certificates framed on the walls) & showers them with praise!

Chilled out isn't totally my thing but I have SO much fun with my daughters - both when they were little and now. They think of me as this wacky, goofy person and we all laugh so much together.

@halfdrunktea

Dear Amy Chua - I would like to ask how much "nature vs nurture" plays a role in being a tiger mother. Clearly in your daughters' case there has been a great deal of nurture involved in their musical and academic achievements, but do you think they were born with an aptitude for music and inherited intelligence from their parents? I'm just wondering if you think any parent could achieve similar results even if their children were not musically or academically gifted.

You know it's funny, I've noticed that westerners talk a lot more about 'natural talent' and 'being gifted' whereas Asians tend to think of everything in terms of hard work and application. Everything depends so much on the child. Some people, like my husband, are completely self-motivated. In other cases, parents can make a huge difference in terms of support, guidance and involvement.

@southofthethames

Hi Amy I was horrified by the articles accompanying the release of the book that painted you/it as being very cruel. When I actually read the book and put the excerpts in context, they were all quite tame - and actually EVERY mother has their extreme moments, even the laid back ones. Some fellow mums secretly said to me they thought it was very good! My questions:1) do you have a lot of musical training yourself? Only that I think many parents with no music training would like to help their children practice but have no idea what to do or how much to expect. 2)did your daughters go to private or state school for most of their schooling in New Haven? It's in reference to your point about whether you would agree with the child or the teacher when there is a dispute - as in some schools, it is very often the child who is right rather than the teacher (eg when a fact or spelling is taught wrongly). Thank you for coming and wishing you and your family all the best. SOTT

Yes, thank you, I definitely included my lowest moments as a mom in the book. I did not have a lot of musical training myself, my parents didn't have much money and my piano teacher was the next door neighbor. I tried to teach myself the violin by checking out books from the library, but it didn't work. I think this is one of the reasons I wanted my children to have opportunities that I didn't.

The thing about the Suzuki music method is that it requires parents to sit in on the lessons. I did this with my kids, with both girls, and took copious (and some would say fanatic!) notes. Some people reading the book seemed to think that our lives were miserable but it was just the opposite. I loved being involved with my girls and learning about music along with them.

I myself went to a (really horrible, huge) state school, but my daughters go to private school. I have really mixed feelings about this. On the one hand, they probably get a better education than I did, but on the other hand there's so much privilege, elitism and materialism all their friends seem to have designer clothes that I've considered putting them back into state schools.

Amy, congrats on the huge success of your book. Where will you channel all that emotional energy when your daughters fly off, possibly becoming tiger mothers themselves? Do you think you'll be able to resist being a micromanaging granny tiger?