Page 31 | Jewish Orthodox Mum Part II AMA

mirah2 · 2023-04-27T16:10:17+00:00

I'm probably letting myself in for it, but here goes... New AMA to mop up any questions that didn't get answered on the first (full) thread. If you're sure (after reading all of that thread) that your question wasn't answered, or have a new question, please post. I probably won't have time to reply until after dinner and kids' bedtime. I am NOT the OP of the original thread. My frame of reference - Modern Orthodox, British (living in UK), convert, mixed race heritage. Fellow Orthodox Jews of Mumsnet - feel free to crowd share answers, but please remember: - this is not the shul kiddush. This is a public internet forum anyone can read - please be sensitive and think about how others (Jewish and not Jewish) might interpret what you say. We sometimes have different working definitions of words within our bubbles so be mindful of that. Go forth and post!

DingsBum · 30/04/2023 17:20

mirah2 · 30/04/2023 16:31

That reminds me, a PP (and I'm really sorry for losing track of whom as it was quite personal) remembered being upset because some distant Jewish family didn't want them touching wine.

The wine thing is real - we use wine for ritual but back in the day idolators also used wine for their rituals. So there is a ban on any non-Jews (even those in the middle of converting!) touching or pouring wine for Jews.

BUT the ban doesn't apply to pasteurised or 'mevushal' wine, so the easy way around this if you are having wine with non-Jews around is to only have mevushal wine. This is also done at weddings etc with non-Jewish waiters.

Traditionally Jews have learnt by a lot of 'custom and practice' rather than from books. As @cabbagesandkingsandbeeswax points out, this means a lot of Jews may not know the actual halachot about certain things unless they learn them in detail. So many Jews may grow up with ideas like 'non-Jews can't touch wine' without knowing the actual halacha. The difference is knowing when to stop and find out the halacha before acting. One of those times is trying to keep the halacha while not offending non-Jews...

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It was me, and huge thanks for that explanation @mirah2

Fortunately I have thick skin these days and so the wine thing doesn't offend the grown up me, especially now I have more context for it. But obviously as a young person painfully aware that many of these people didn't really consider me as part of their family, it did sting at the time!

TheShellBeach · 30/04/2023 17:41

cabbagesandkingsandbeeswax · 30/04/2023 17:20

That is so nice of you to be accomodating. I have had not always been accomodated in that situation and its hard. People don't always realise how non negotiable shabbat is.

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The thing is, I am a committed Christian and I do understand that I must respect other people's religions.

I used to run ante-natal classes for Bengali Muslim women, too. They were not able to access the classes the English women attended (language barrier, and husbands present). So I got two Bengali health aides to assist me, and they did the translating for me. It was amazing - so many women who had been disenfranchised came. I went to evening classes and learned some Bengali, too.

FlappyFish · 30/04/2023 17:45

I’ve been lurking and reading. This has been fascinating. Thank you are sharing your experience, religion and lives.

TheShellBeach · 30/04/2023 17:47

I was a maternity nurse for a while, too. I worked in three Jewish homes, and all had slightly different attitudes to Judaism. All had Kosher kitchens, though, and one of the women sat me down and explained the milk/meat/parev situation in detail. I was determined to get it as right as I could. It was so important to my employer.

I got used to having two sinks, two sets of everything, and not putting the milk pan next to the meat pan. I made a few mistakes but I always told the lady, so that she could do whatever needed to be done with the things I'd put in the wrong place (!)

One family and I were together during Passover (for them) and Easter (for me) and we were entirely respectful of one another's views. It was actually a lovely time.

AfingeroffudgeisNOTenough · 30/04/2023 17:47

Thank you to you wonderful women for such a positive, respectful and enlightening thread. As a committed Christian, it’s lovely to see such a respectful thread on faith.

I have always wondered about the name Cohen. I know 4 boys called Cohen under the age of 12 - 2 in Scotland, 1 in Ireland and 1 in Canada. It’s not a name I would ever have considered because I would have thought it would be considered offensive to Jewish people to use it as a first name. The three I know in the U.K. would have no ideas of the original connotations of the name, but I was surprised when a Christian friend in Canada, who would consider themselves very conscious of not causing offence to people, named his son Cohen. Would it be considered offensive, or just weird to Jewish people?

EllaDisenchanted · 30/04/2023 17:49

AfingeroffudgeisNOTenough · 30/04/2023 17:47

Thank you to you wonderful women for such a positive, respectful and enlightening thread. As a committed Christian, it’s lovely to see such a respectful thread on faith.

I have always wondered about the name Cohen. I know 4 boys called Cohen under the age of 12 - 2 in Scotland, 1 in Ireland and 1 in Canada. It’s not a name I would ever have considered because I would have thought it would be considered offensive to Jewish people to use it as a first name. The three I know in the U.K. would have no ideas of the original connotations of the name, but I was surprised when a Christian friend in Canada, who would consider themselves very conscious of not causing offence to people, named his son Cohen. Would it be considered offensive, or just weird to Jewish people?

:)
Just weird, not offensive. It's like using a title/ surname as a first name.

EllaDisenchanted · 30/04/2023 17:50

TheShellBeach · 30/04/2023 17:47

I was a maternity nurse for a while, too. I worked in three Jewish homes, and all had slightly different attitudes to Judaism. All had Kosher kitchens, though, and one of the women sat me down and explained the milk/meat/parev situation in detail. I was determined to get it as right as I could. It was so important to my employer.

I got used to having two sinks, two sets of everything, and not putting the milk pan next to the meat pan. I made a few mistakes but I always told the lady, so that she could do whatever needed to be done with the things I'd put in the wrong place (!)

One family and I were together during Passover (for them) and Easter (for me) and we were entirely respectful of one another's views. It was actually a lovely time.

@TheShellBeach that sounds really lovely :) Hard enough for us to keep kashrus and we were brought up absorbing the rules by osmosis!

TheShellBeach · 30/04/2023 17:54

I also read a book by Mrs. Tehilla Abramov which described the practice of Taharat HaMispachah, and I thought it was fascinating.
That's what prompted me to ask about bedikot cloths and the seven spotless days.

Can I ask if any women on this thread had to start the count again as a result of a stain? It would be so disappointing - and then you'd be almost having your period again..............

Ortiguilla · 30/04/2023 17:57

EllaDisenchanted · 30/04/2023 17:49

:)
Just weird, not offensive. It's like using a title/ surname as a first name.

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I would agree - odd, not offensive.

I've been out for the day and seems like I've missed some unpleasant posts. Lucky me!

EllaDisenchanted · 30/04/2023 17:58

TheShellBeach · 30/04/2023 17:54

I also read a book by Mrs. Tehilla Abramov which described the practice of Taharat HaMispachah, and I thought it was fascinating.
That's what prompted me to ask about bedikot cloths and the seven spotless days.

Can I ask if any women on this thread had to start the count again as a result of a stain? It would be so disappointing - and then you'd be almost having your period again..............

Yes, not often but it has happened. Once on 7th day which was horrible.

sadienurse2 · 30/04/2023 17:59

Oh can I ask about the peach cleaning and if you look forward to it or its a massive chore? I can't imagine doing just the kitchen, let alone the whole house to that level of stringency. I moved house last year and when I pulled out the cooker (which hadn't been moved for 10 years) let's just say 🤢🤢🤢.

sadienurse2 · 30/04/2023 18:00

*pesach

FinchleyRd · 30/04/2023 18:03

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AfingeroffudgeisNOTenough · 30/04/2023 18:06

Yes, I can understand how the Cohen name thing would be considered odd - am
I right in thinking it’s effectively like calling your son “reverend”?

Another question - I saw on the news earlier that leaders from various other faiths will be involved in Charles’ coronation next weekend, but that the multi-faith blessing would not be seen or heard outside of the Abbey due to the Rabbi not being able to use a microphone on Shabbat. It made me wonder how the whole thing would be able to work. Will he have to stay a certain distance away so he can walk to the Abbey on the sabbath? Will he be able to carry the order of service as he’ll be outside of Eruv? Is it actually a really big deal that he is involved on the sabbath at all?

Georgyporky · 30/04/2023 18:14

I watched the mikvah video on YouTube, as posted on the previous AMA thread.
Fascinating, but surely women are simply getting in "used" water. No matter how clean they supposedly are before entering, I still find it similar to a swimming pool & would not feel clean after using it.

cabbagesandkingsandbeeswax · 30/04/2023 18:15

AfingeroffudgeisNOTenough · 30/04/2023 18:06

Yes, I can understand how the Cohen name thing would be considered odd - am
I right in thinking it’s effectively like calling your son “reverend”?

Another question - I saw on the news earlier that leaders from various other faiths will be involved in Charles’ coronation next weekend, but that the multi-faith blessing would not be seen or heard outside of the Abbey due to the Rabbi not being able to use a microphone on Shabbat. It made me wonder how the whole thing would be able to work. Will he have to stay a certain distance away so he can walk to the Abbey on the sabbath? Will he be able to carry the order of service as he’ll be outside of Eruv? Is it actually a really big deal that he is involved on the sabbath at all?

Rabbi Mirivis is invited to a sleepover at Clarence House.

https://www.townandcountrymag.com/society/tradition/a41792654/rabbi-ephraim-mirvis-shabbat-king-charles-coronation-clarence-house/

Britain's Chief Rabbi Will Stay at Clarence House the Night Before King Charles's Coronation

The night before King Charles's coronation, Rabbi Ephraim Mirvis and his wife will be guests of the royal couple in order to observe Shabbat and still attend the coronation.

https://www.townandcountrymag.com/society/tradition/a41792654/rabbi-ephraim-mirvis-shabbat-king-charles-coronation-clarence-house

Tumbays · 30/04/2023 18:23

I have a question. This was beautiful and is similar to the spirit of Christianity :

love others as you love yourself (upthread, a commandment in Torah)

In these teachings, does" others" refer to all human beings or other fellow Jews? And is that interpretation uniform across all Jewish faiths?

AfingeroffudgeisNOTenough · 30/04/2023 18:23

Wow! This is very cool!

AfingeroffudgeisNOTenough · 30/04/2023 18:25

That was in response to @cabbagesandkingsandbeeswax post on the Chief Rabbi staying at Clarence House the night before

EllaDisenchanted · 30/04/2023 18:25

more like calling them priest. He will be consulting with other very senior Rabbis and working through exactly what he is allowed to do and how.
Entering the Abbey is already an exception as Jews don't go in to churches.

TheShellBeach · 30/04/2023 18:27

Has anyone else fallen down a rabbit hole of YouTube videos about Jewish families, Shabbat, Mikvaot etc?

FinchleyRd · 30/04/2023 18:27

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TheShellBeach · 30/04/2023 18:29

Georgyporky · 30/04/2023 18:14

I watched the mikvah video on YouTube, as posted on the previous AMA thread.
Fascinating, but surely women are simply getting in "used" water. No matter how clean they supposedly are before entering, I still find it similar to a swimming pool & would not feel clean after using it.

I think the fact that women have to make sure they are ultra-clean, then have along bath, followed by a shower, before they get in, would make it acceptable to most women.

FinchleyRd · 30/04/2023 18:29

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Original poster

mirah2 · 30/04/2023 18:31

AfingeroffudgeisNOTenough · 30/04/2023 17:47

Thank you to you wonderful women for such a positive, respectful and enlightening thread. As a committed Christian, it’s lovely to see such a respectful thread on faith.

I have always wondered about the name Cohen. I know 4 boys called Cohen under the age of 12 - 2 in Scotland, 1 in Ireland and 1 in Canada. It’s not a name I would ever have considered because I would have thought it would be considered offensive to Jewish people to use it as a first name. The three I know in the U.K. would have no ideas of the original connotations of the name, but I was surprised when a Christian friend in Canada, who would consider themselves very conscious of not causing offence to people, named his son Cohen. Would it be considered offensive, or just weird to Jewish people?

Another vote for just weird. Actually, as a Terry Pratchett fan, I'd wonder if they were referencing Cohen the Barbarian 😂

Thank you!

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