Jewish Orthodox Mum Part II AMA

[mirah2]

I'm probably letting myself in for it, but here goes...

New AMA to mop up any questions that didn't get answered on the first (full) thread. If you're sure (after reading all of that thread) that your question wasn't answered, or have a new question, please post.

I probably won't have time to reply until after dinner and kids' bedtime.

I am NOT the OP of the original thread. My frame of reference - Modern Orthodox, British (living in UK), convert, mixed race heritage.

Fellow Orthodox Jews of Mumsnet - feel free to crowd share answers, but please remember:

• this is not the shul kiddush. This is a public internet forum anyone can read
• please be sensitive and think about how others (Jewish and not Jewish) might interpret what you say. We sometimes have different working definitions of words within our bubbles so be mindful of that.

Go forth and post!

I just wanted that I've been following these two AMAs since Friday and I have to say as a fellow ultra orthodox mum that the two OPs as well as the others chiming in have been doing a great job. (Aside from the obvious Jeweyjew issues earlier, but that seems to be over now)
Thank you so much for this thread, it's been really enjoyable following it the last few days, I haven't had time to actually join in until now I was constantly catching up.

I've always lived here and still do, I'm not sure about my future here though.

I just saw that the last part was not addressed to me, I'm sorry.

Given jeweyjew hasn’t been back perhaps Friday night’s topic of conversation didn’t go his way!

@jewishorthomum thank you. I think I’ve already found ggm, now need to put the pieces together - I think from what I’ve been told over the years, there might be some missing marriage certificates in the eyes of English law… it looks like she arrived in London around 1885 so I’ll find her.

I really appreciate all the amazing words of wisdom from all who’ve contributed here and a bit sad as I had boys and I’d I don’t steer us back it will end here.

@Bergmum @simplespimply I'm utterly fascinated by life in SH. I understand from previous threads that it isn't unusual for 6+ children to live in 2 bed flats. How do families practically navigate this? A bedroom for the parents, but where does everyone else go? What about all of their stuff? Where do they dry their clothes? Do mothers in particular not really struggle like this? I had 3 dc under 3 in a 2 bed flat and it really affected my mental health.
I really enjoyed the documentaries set in SH as it gave glimpses into the homes, which is very interesting. Frieda Vizel (sp) is an ex Chassid from Brooklyn and she now does tours in a respectful way to show people a glimpse into the ultra orthodox way of life. Has something like that ever been done in SH? I'd definitely pay well for something like that.

I actually wondered if JeweyJew had been muzzled.
I was imagining the women on this thread frantically trying to identify him IRL, and getting someone to tell him to shut up.
Or maybe MN banned him - he's had lots of posts deleted.

I didn't do anything other than report some posts and yell at him on the thread. No idea if we're even in the same city IRL! But yes, I wonder if MN suspended him after all the reports - I've no idea how this works.

Really hoping he doesn't come back.

(and I'm still here but only dipping in as and when I can).

I wanted to get back to this, I have heard of Maccabees being used as a source for some of the stories that we know about the Maccabees. Since we don't know the authors of those books they aren't always considered a definitive source.
Our main source about the story Chanukah would be from the Gemara, there is a section dedicated to the story of Chanukah.
The Maccabees and the story of Chanukah is a part of Jewish history that has always fascinated me so I hope to read those books sometime.

I have found these threads fascinating- it is always a joy and privilege to learn about peoples differing ways of life. I strongly believe that much war / atrocities are brought about by ignorance and fear of groups different from our own. Indeed it is vital that the atrocities of the holocaust remain in the forefront of all our minds to ensure that events like this never happen again.

Can I ask the orthodox mums who are participating in this thread your views on teaching both yourselves and your children about the religions / beliefs of others. There have been many comments about the importance of keeping the community separate from those who do not hold the same views. Do you encourage people to find out about other religions and to have tolerance / understanding of them?

Many people on this thread have said how they feel more connected with the women who have shared their thoughts - I have too - but I also feel sad because my understanding (do correct me if I’m wrong) is that you don’t want to have that sense of connection with us? Of course that is totally your right but it’s a bit like meeting someone you really like who then turns round and tells you they don’t want to be your friend - does that make any sense?

@LadyLazarus40
We are educated about other faiths in terms of their history and in high school I remember having a few teacher lead class debate about Christianity/Islam/Judasim. So most Jews are knowledgeable when it comes to other faiths and beliefs.

But I do hear where you are coming from regarding our hesitancy to mingle with other faiths. I think it boils down to the fact that a lot of our customs are so foreign and far removed to modern day society we just feel very different. We can't really relate to secular life just as you probably can't really relate to Jewish life. That doesn't mean we can't chat and be friends, but that closeness might be unrealistic.

@Athinker Do you know @JeweyJew because you have a strikingly similar attitude.

There is a lot of overcrowding in Stamford Hill and I think that it does affect the mental health of the parents and the kids who live like that, it's one of the reasons that people have been working to start new communities in Canvey Island and Westcliffe where people can live in larger and more affordable houses with more green space. The Stamford Hill community is also spreading out more and people are buying houses further into Tottenham and Harringey where houses are cheaper.
The Jewish housing association AIHA is also working hard to help people who have the biggest housing need.
I also enjoy watching Freida Vizel's tours and interviews, I don't think it has been done in SH.
There was an episode of Stacey Dooley sleeps over where she stayed at an orthodox Jewish family, this wasn't quite in SH but they did have a lot of kids so might still be interesting for you.

I was just thinking this...

I would've loved to identify him and shut him up IRL. But obviously the community is large so I would have no way of knowing who he is.
Unfortunately there are many men in the community who have an attitude like that.

I was just thinking this...

@mirah2

I posted this question back on Friday at 1224 which seemed to get lost in a debate with someone determined to wind everyone up...
Apologies if this question is not in the spirit of your thread & I hope it doesn't offend. It is meant respectfully.

My question was:

I watched David Baddiel's 'Jews Don't Count' and was horrified to hear about the security drills that children in UK Jewish schools have to practise.

With that in mind, I've also just read on Google that there is a Jewish Community Protective Security grant - a grant started in 2015 - for synagogues & schools.

Do these measures affect your daily life? And those of your family?
Can you remember a time before such security measures were necessary for the Jewish Community in the UK?

@Athinker Are you an atheist?

I wondered if, during Shabbat, JeweyJew reflected on his behavior and decided not to return. Would that be plausible for someone who aims to be a “good Jew” (using his language there.)

Due to rise in antisemitism Jewish schools and other institutions have extra security measures. Usually there is a security guard in a booth at the entrance. Many schools have high gates and lots of Cctv.
I think it initially started around 2015 when there was a lot of Israeli/Palestinian tension and there was an increase in antisemitic incidents an it was unfortunately needed, even here in the UK.

When the security booths started going up outside the schools it was a little strange but now that we're used to it I don't find it affects us negatively, we don't even notice it really.

There was a thread on here about the David Baddiel show, a while ago where people described their encounters with antisemitism. Let me see if I can find it.

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/4682906-david-badiel-jews-dont-count-shocked

In my community (US) there are male members in each synagogue who carry concealed weapons. I have a neighbor who is one of them at his synagogue. It is so upsetting that they need to do this.

Just to add that keeping kosher and Shabbat makes some very practical challenges for socialising outside our community.

With our first, we (slightly stupidly) signed up for an NCT style group in NW London but well outside the Jewish neighborhood we lived in at the time. There were a couple of secular/traditional Jews on the course and the rest were not Jewish.

Post-birth, I did try going to some of the social meetups. I think I made it to two before dropping out. It was really really hard because everyone else was local to that area whereas I had to shlep on two buses to get there. Plus a lot of the meetups were on Shabbat and/or in non-kosher restaurants.

I don't think the others were being intentionally exclusive. But the location meant no kosher options and I didn't want to throw a spanner in their works by complaining about Shabbat meetups. Add PND, new babiness and the public transport problem and it was easier to withdraw and make Orthodox Jewish Mum friends instead.

I dint know of a single school in SH where they did any kind of security drills. There are plenty of antisemitic incidents, as has been the case forever.

In Hasidic schools there's zero discussion of other religions. The insulation and exclusion isn't merely born out of fear of persecution. It's by design not to mingle and integrate with the rest of the world.