To want to settle a generation gap argument: older (female) relative is saying women had to give up work when they got married?

[Winnabella]

Got an older female relative (aunt) who gave up work when she married my uncle (now passed away). They got married in 1964. My parents got married in 1970 and my mum carried on working. My grandmother carried on working until she was in her late 70s. But my aunt goes on about how it 'wasn't acceptable' to carry on working after getting married. She's not done too badly being a SAHM but does go on a bit about the sacrifices she made. She had a cleaner and a housekeeper to do the housework and she and my uncle had 2 children. My cousins often joke about how they had to wear their pyjamas for two weeks. My aunt came round on Sunday and she went on and on about the job she did just before she got married. It is a bit like she's been stuck in time - this was nearly 50 years ago now. Was it the case that women were frowned upon in the 1960s for working if they got married; and how come my mother and grandmother seemed to hold down jobs (my mum part time after I was born and before I started school)

Both my grandmothers worked. One was a seamstress; the other worked as a cleaner. Their families needed the money.

My mum and dad married in the late 60s and she continued to work until she had me. She said that was what most people did although many returned to work when their children started school.

My nan got married just before ww2 but continued to work throughout the war, leaving work when my grandad came home from serving abroad after the war ended.

Yes yes, this was definitely a thing - and as some have said there were formal marriage bars and then more informal "socially unacceptable" drivers for women to leave work on marriage.

I was born in 1972 and my mum had to give up work (ironically as a midwife) because there was no maternity leave. And when she went back into the workforce she had to accept a more junior grade on return. She spent years paying back into her NHS pension to catch up with years of missed earnings.

And don't forget, until the mid 1990's (I think) part time workers (mainly women!) did not have equal rights to things such as mat leave and other benefits as full time workers. It is truly shocking how much structural discrimination many women experienced in my working memory.

My grandmother (born 1883) worked all her life, my mother (born 1910) also worked full-time all the time I was growing up. We were married in 1969 and after university, I and all my friends worked full-time. My sister who is ten years older than me had her education messed up by the war and she was a full-time housewife until her children left home. It never occurred to me or to DH that I would not have a career.

That's right. Until 1944, women teachers had to resign on marriage. When I was at Grammar school, the all-female staff were all spinsters, except one widow and a divorced woman who had been allowed back into the profession when they had no husband.
Women teachers didn't get equal pay rates with men, until 1961.

In WW2, men went to war and women did the mens' jobs left vacant. When the men came back, they took their jobs back again .

One of my friends (long dead) was born in 1900, and came from a (male) family line of Doctors. As she was a bright girl with a good education she begged her Dr father to let her train as a Dr like her brothers. He told her it would be a wasted training as (of course) she would stop working on marriage. The only way he would permit it, was if she promised on the bible never to marry. She promised, became a Dr for her entire working life and never married. I asked her if it had been hard to keep her promise and she said " Not really. WW1 service deaths meant there just weren't enough husbands for my generation of women anyway. My only regret is that I've never had sex."

My mum “had” to give up work as a police officer in 1981 when I was born. Not sure whether she really had to as in forced to leave or whether in practice it was just impossible to continue.

A friend of mine left the police when she had her first child in 1983 but it was very much her choice as her husband was also a police officer and they felt they would hardly see each other if they were on different shifts. She went on to have lots of kids so working wouldn’t have been very practical.

My mum was forced to leave the RAF when she had me in 1984. She later recieved compensation.

I think I have been living in a parallel universe based on the posts on the first page of the thread (which is all I have read). 🧐

My parents were married in 1966, in Ireland although they moved to England soon afterwards. My mother has always worked, she has never mentioned an expectation upon her to stop working or that it was unusual. I went to school during the 70s and I would say a large proportion of the mothers of my fellow pupils worked (and had worked through the 60s) too.

@BonasThatBonas

I can’t believe you and your family have been mean to your aunt over this or that you disbelieved her when she flat out told you she had to give up work.

Aside from many jobs refusing to keep in married women there was also likely massive societal pressure at that time and also potential her husband put her under huge pressure.

I feel sorry for her how you’ve all been so dismissive. I hope you apologise now you know better. @Winnabella

For sure! I do feel more appreciative and I do feel she must have gone through quite a bit giving up her dreams. I didn't disbelieve her; having female relatives who kept working mean I was a bit cynical - I'm just amazed this is all so recent!

@bigbluebus

My parents married in 1953. My mum gave up work straight away as it is what was expected. I got married in 1988. I remember the priest asking me if I intended to carry on working when I was married. It was a question that took me by surprise because I didn't realise that anyone thought that was still the expectation.

My Office Manager asked if I would give up work when I got married. In 1999!

Just adding as others have said that it depended on the job, employer and social class. Manual/working class jobs in cleaning, shop work, factory work etc. could be done by married women; but even so there was an expectation in many working-class communities that women didn't work outside the home either, unless our of financial desperation (my paternal grandmother was a cinema usherette before marriage and then never worked again; my grandfather was a builder and joiner and they were proud that he supported the family on his wage). My lower middle class maternal grandmother, however, ran a shop after marriage (since it was her own business).

In many jobs it was simply the culture and the expectation and socially enforced. My mum worked as a social worker, and though she carried on working after marriage in the mid-late 70s, it was explicitly expected that she would leave when pregnant (and she did). It took her twenty years to get back into the workforce.

Also, although you didn't have to give up your job in all professions, many men really didn't like their wives working.

It also depended on their employer as well. Where my Grandad worked it was made clear that a working wife wasn't an option as it meant people would assume they didn't pay well, or that their employee was a drinker or gambler.

Your Aunt is right.

My wonderful mum always told me not to get married as it ruins your life. I finally got married aged 47 and although mum was long gone by then, I think she would have been ok with the idea.

She was desperate to be a teacher but wasn’t allowed to train after the war because she was married. She was clever enough to be a code reader during the war though.

Her cousin (male) became a teacher and eventually got promoted to Deputy Head but he was a total arsehole. He used to show off at family gatherings thinking he was such a high flier, but the reality was it was fairly easy to get into teaching after the war, especially for the men.

Not really. WW1 service deaths meant there just weren't enough husbands for my generation of women anyway.

This echoes two of my great aunts' experience. They never married because there were not enough men of their generation to go around.

Depending on your work and boss. There was very little childcare so even if you carried on after marriage you were expected to quit once you were obviously pregnant eg 5 months. Some occupations required women to be single eg nursing and teaching but not sure when the rules were changed.

Even if you could legally work in your profession, it wasn't socially acceptable to have a working wife in some circles, meant the man couldn't afford to keep her - still the case in some societies, though ironically in lower income groups.

My aunt quit on marriage mid 1960's, my mum worked until pregnant (70's) and went back once youngest was at juniors pt, full time once at secondary school

My grandmother got the sack in the 1930s for getting married!
My mother kept working in the 1960s but very few married women did at that point

@Aprilx

I think I have been living in a parallel universe based on the posts on the first page of the thread (which is all I have read). 🧐

My parents were married in 1966, in Ireland although they moved to England soon afterwards. My mother has always worked, she has never mentioned an expectation upon her to stop working or that it was unusual. I went to school during the 70s and I would say a large proportion of the mothers of my fellow pupils worked (and had worked through the 60s) too.

Where did they/you live in England? I grew up in the 1980s in a very working-class Northern town, and none of the mothers of the kids at my school worked until well into the 90s. The north was about twenty years behind - most of my childhood was to all intents and purposes indistinguishable from my mother's in the 1960s. I only knew of one child with divorced parents and it was considered a social scandal - in 1985!

@Rosehip10

It's hard for people today to image the some of the "culture" of middle/upper middle class life in say the 50s/60s. For men who were more senior in industry/professions the way your wife was seen to "act" was important for social standing and your future career. My grandfather was an area manager in the national coal board and my grandmother often reminisced about torturous, boring social events/dinners, where she was often expected to take a role chatting to the more junior colliery managers wives at such events.

At the area offices my grandfather had a secretary who had been married - she was only allowed to work for the NCB as her husband had been killed at the tail end of the war, and hence was one of the minuscule number of NCB female employees who could be called "Mrs" rather than "Miss"

Oooh, yes! As a consultant’s wife my mum was expected to host dinner parties for the junior doctors and their spouses every time my dad got new “batch”. This was in the 70s and 80s. It was all quite formal and a bit awkward.

I can’t imagine having to make soufflés and serve sherry in the best glasses to DH’s work team. We’ve had a few of them round for dinner before, but it was because we wanted to, not because of social convention. There was no sense of hierarchy, no “shop talk”, and DH all did the cooking.

[quote Rosehip10]@Georgyporky For women in the civil service and in places like the clearing banks it was absolutely the case - there was no "do you want to carry on?", you had to leave. The civil service gave a special payment to women when they left to be married.[/quote]
You quote 2 employers, I said only some employers.

Was thinking of nominating this for classics, it is such an interesting collection of policy, custom and practice of the experience of recent generations of women.

good call @TyneTeas - i second you

I used to be in the Army as was my husband. I wanted to buy a new TV so i went to the shop, on camp, and aksed for a hire purchase agreement which they wouldn't accept unless my husband signed it despite the fact that i was a) a grown-up with my own job and b) an actual bloody soldier who the organisation was supposed to support.

I wore down the manager in the end with my promise that i would be informing everyone of this sexist practice, and it did change for forces women. But not for the non-forces wives who still had to get a husband's signature. (not sure about single female soldiers though) In fact they probably just saw my wedding ring and made an assumption, despite the fact that many many female soldiers at that time were married. This was in 1985

I know my great aunt wasn't allowed to continue working as a teacher when she got married. She would be in her late 90s now so we are talking 70 years ago - 1940s/50s. My mum was a married teacher in the late 60s.

Just to throw anther piece of social history in.
My other Granny became a widow in 1946. It was just (months) before the widows pension became a thing, and it wasn't backdated.
She had a new baby and a 4 year old, and she was in dire straights. She had to put my uncle (the baby) in full time nursery and find work. Nursery places were like gold dust and so was work for a single mother. She worked in a shop I think, then as a bookkeeper.

It was a really long hard slog, she wasn't entitled to any help at all. Women widowed a few months later received a widows pension/benefit which allowed them to stay at home for a while when kids were babies and kept food on the table, her early life was extremely hard.

But she worked all her life after that.

For some employers I think it was part of the terms and conditions of a job that a woman would resign when getting married!
And even if it wasnt it was still the expected thing to do.
When I got married in 1997 my best friends mum was quite surprised that I wasn't given up work🤣
And when i had my first dc in 1999 it was more common to give up work and be a sahm than it was to be a working mum , times change but I think its hard for my daughter, who is now 22, to grasp just how much things have changed even in her lifetime.

In the 80s my dad got a job that came with a flat associated with the workplace. It wasn’t until after he had accepted the job and we’d moved in that we found out that there were “duties” my mum and I (aged 8) were expected to perform too, including some specialist cleaning jobs (silver tableware) and looking after the cloakroom (coat drop) during formal evening events.

My mum gave up her job when she married my dad in 1966 and didn't work again until I was 12. Then she just worked a few evenings a week. When I was 15 she changed jobs and worked more hours but still part time.