To want to settle a generation gap argument: older (female) relative is saying women had to give up work when they got married?

[Winnabella]

Got an older female relative (aunt) who gave up work when she married my uncle (now passed away). They got married in 1964. My parents got married in 1970 and my mum carried on working. My grandmother carried on working until she was in her late 70s. But my aunt goes on about how it 'wasn't acceptable' to carry on working after getting married. She's not done too badly being a SAHM but does go on a bit about the sacrifices she made. She had a cleaner and a housekeeper to do the housework and she and my uncle had 2 children. My cousins often joke about how they had to wear their pyjamas for two weeks. My aunt came round on Sunday and she went on and on about the job she did just before she got married. It is a bit like she's been stuck in time - this was nearly 50 years ago now. Was it the case that women were frowned upon in the 1960s for working if they got married; and how come my mother and grandmother seemed to hold down jobs (my mum part time after I was born and before I started school)

My DM was earning more than Dad they wouldn't take her wage as equity against their mortgage before they had their first.

My parents married in the sixties. My mum gave up work to get married and never worked outside the home again.

among middle classes, until quite recently a man would be looked down on if his wife had to go out to work, that he was not able to provide for her

This. My dad was really proud of the fact that his wife had no need to go out to work.

It's hard for people today to image the some of the "culture" of middle/upper middle class life in say the 50s/60s. For men who were more senior in industry/professions the way your wife was seen to "act" was important for social standing and your future career. My grandfather was an area manager in the national coal board and my grandmother often reminisced about torturous, boring social events/dinners, where she was often expected to take a role chatting to the more junior colliery managers wives at such events.

At the area offices my grandfather had a secretary who had been married - she was only allowed to work for the NCB as her husband had been killed at the tail end of the war, and hence was one of the minuscule number of NCB female employees who could be called "Mrs" rather than "Miss"

I wouldn't say that women 'had to give up work' when they got married back then. I'd say they were sacked. Unceremoniously sacked.

MIL had to give up her job in the bank (1959) when she got married.
This practice carried on into the sixties in many jobs.

I remember it being frowned upon to work after having babies. The argument was 'why have babies if you can't be bothered to look after them?'

My Grandparents courted for nearly 6 years before marrying because my Nana loved being a nurse and they knew she'd have to give it up. They got married in 1956 almost exactly 9 months before my uncle was born. She had "little jobs" over the years after that, cleaning, bookkeeping or paid childminder, but not a career or proper job.

When DH was born in the late 60's MIL worked in an office. She got 3 weeks leave and her boss advertised for a replacement twice times before they accepted she was coming back. She'd also had to fight the assumption she was leaving when she got married as well. Eventually she was let go when DH was 1 and she fell pregnant with BIL.

My mum “had” to give up work as a police officer in 1981 when I was born. Not sure whether she really had to as in forced to leave or whether in practice it was just impossible to continue. She stayed at home for 7 years until my little brother went to school and then did bitty reception/shop/admin jobs until she retired. Total waste of her really brilliant brain, she would have made an amazing senior police officer.

@Menschenskind

I started teaching in the early seventies. Married women kept on working but I can't think of any who stayed in their job after they had a child. They usually spent the early years at home then did supply work until their children started school.

There weren't nurseries and childminders like there are now so unless family could do the childcare the mother couldn't work. As far as I remember any state nurseries were for children from disadvantaged homes.

There were women who wanted to work but weren't allowed to by their controlling husbands. I remember a woman whose husband said she could get a job if she liked (she was middle-aged and the children were grown up) but he wouldn't be lifting a finger in the house and he expected his tea on the table when he came in from work as usual.
I don't know whether she went ahead.

From the comments on MN a lot of younger women seem to think life was like it is now but with cheaper housing. It was far from that.

My mother benefited from the change of rule during the War, allowing married women to continue teaching . Her first baby was born in 1943 and she returned to teaching full time. The baby was at the nursery in the same school.

There was , of course another problem the lack of equal pay for women teachers which only came in gradually through the 50s. Before that she had earned only 75% of a man's rate though she had 5 people to keep.

The NAS ( National Association of School MASTERS ) broke away from the NUT ( National Union of Teachers ) who were campaigning for equal pay on this very point. The NAS campaigned for years through the 50s, 60s, 70s against equal pay for women.( I still can't believe women joined the UWT, Union of Women Teachers when the Labour Government brought in the Sex Discrimination Act and they had to have a women's wing. )

On the other hand my uncle became the Union Convenor for Fairey Aviation in Manchester during the War and immediately negotiated equal pay for women employees. ( A man well ahead of the times.)

The NUT set up the Teachers' Building Society so that women teachers could get mortgages. No other BS or Bank would lend to a woman. No hire purchase either. I remember going to a Manchester Coop meeting and complaining about their policies in the 70s.

By 1967 teachers had maternity leave - 11 weeks before and 6 after the birth I believe. My sister returned FT after having a baby as her husband earned very little.

Banks however were still sacking women on marriage and firms still sack women who are pregnant, though it is illegal. If you haven't a Union backing you it is expensive to fight on at a Tribunal.

I think most (but not all) marriage bars had gone by 1964 and of course working class women have always had to work - their families needed the money.

However, I think culturally there was still an expectation that a successful man would not have a working wife.

I got married in 2002. My Dad asked me if I was going to give up work!

@cabingirl It was also heavily enforced through the use of the pay scales. I have some civil service salary charts from the mid 50s and after a few years service the pay differential between men and women was significant (on the assumption women would have left on marriage).

For the "principal" and higher grades a women's scale is not shown! (Again assumed women would not be there long enough to be promoted).

My mum worked but she had her own business. I'm not sure there was much out there apart from 'little' part time jobs tbh. I guess people could (just about) exist on one wage. Often not possible these days.

My place of work has quite a history. In the foyer there is a case devoted to how the working experience of women has changed (it now has a female CEO). Within the case there is a poster from the early 1950s aimed at recruiting women. Its unique selling point... is that women got a special savings bonus when working so that they could save up to get married before they left. Life has changed a but since then thankfully.

She does sound lazy, though. My parents married the same year and my mother carried on working in a civil service job until she got pregnant in 1967. She was a SAHM and trailing spouse as my father worked abroad a lot. We had hired help in a lot of places but she never let us run around in the same PJs for two weeks or bangs on about how hard done by she was.

Many did. My mum and dad married in 1951, and she did not give up work as she was Clerk to the Magistrates and loved her job. It took them 9 years to have a baby so that’s when she finished work. She said she was heavily frowned on in the 50s for working, then heavily frowned on in the 70s for not.

I have a feeling it was only in the late 80's that women coukd be married in Army. They certainly couldn't be mothers then .

No, we could be married earlier than that. My mum had to leave the air force pregnant with me, and that carried on with women in the military until around... 1990? During my time you had to leave before 12 weeks so no maternity pay, nothing.

But pp is right: working class women have always worked so what we are talking about here is pretty much middle class career type jobs. And of course there were exceptions, after the 2nd world war when many women who had done some pretty gruelling jobs in things like the steel industry (for low wages) and had to give them up when the men came back, of course they started to push back against this kind of thing.

I've heard before about some jobs in the civil service making exceptions for certain jobs, but usually having a child put paid to that. My mum always worked, often only part time, when i was growing up, at one point her hourly salary was quite a lot more than my father's - although he did earn more as he worked full-time. She had a proper trade though and worked in a drawing office. Back in the 70s she was much in demand and could pretty much work only term-time with the whole holidays off. It was unusual among my friends, though. At most one or two had little cleaning jobs and for a long time women's earnings were considered pin-money.

I think that a lot of us can and should be very grateful to the women who kicked back and made their way in the world of work, some of whom have been mentioned on this thread. And we should definitely not look down on women who had to give up on their dreams and wishes because of biology.

Younger women who watched the Handmaid's Tale have said to me "blimey, when they closed their bank accounts" and hearing how long it took for women to be able to get loans, etc, have been very shocked.

I have seen employment contracts for a bank (now defunct) that very clearly stated that women would not remain employed post marriage without explicit written permission from the CEO, and that this would only be granted in exceptional circumstances. The contract was issued in 1974.

So yes, it was the case that (some) women would be compelled to leave their jobs when they got married.

Was thinking of nominating this for classics, it is such an interesting collection of policy, custom and practice of the experience of recent generations of women.

My Granny worked for the civil service and it was the norm to give up when you got married. In fact you were not allowed to stay on once married.

But she was a bit earlier.

Also, although you didn't have to give up your job in all professions, many men really didn't like their wives working. There was an element of 'you don't think I provide well enough for the family' about women going to work. In fact it was much more common for working class women to work due to financial need, which perpetuated this too.

Add in the fact that many men expected the woman to have his tea on the table, it is hardly surprising that it was very difficult for many women to work once married.

It was alos a thing that in job interviews they could ask you about plans for kids, and then decide not to emplot you as you might go off and have kids. Working mothers were even more rare than working wives.

My Mum got married in 1964. She is a teacher. She and my Dad were very ahead of the game and she continued to work until she had kids and went back when youngest was 3. She was unusual, most of her contemporaries didn't.

Anyone interested in the history of women in the civil service, this is a good site:

www.civilservant.org.uk/women-history.html

My grandmother felt she had to lie about being a widow with a child when working as an accountant in 1962.

It sounds like your aunt may have some regrets. Maybe talk to her about it, ask her if she wishes things had been different and see what she says. Even if she's had a good life, there may be a bit more to this, and even after 50 years it sounds like its still not resolved for her.

I can’t believe you and your family have been mean to your aunt over this or that you disbelieved her when she flat out told you she had to give up work.

Aside from many jobs refusing to keep in married women there was also likely massive societal pressure at that time and also potential her husband put her under huge pressure.

I feel sorry for her how you’ve all been so dismissive. I hope you apologise now you know better. @Winnabella

My mum got married in 1964 and didn’t give up work-she kept working till she had her first baby and then gave up-that seemed to be pretty much par for the course.

Odd that your aunt seems to still hold a grudge about it now-there was nothing to stop her going back to work in the 80s when presumably she was still only in her 40s if she wanted more money. My mum had a whole new career after children-it was perfectly acceptable for married women to work then!

I’m not sure if anyone has mentioned this, but I recall many nurses had to ask permission from matron to get married. I’m not sure when that stopped, it may have depended on the hospital. But often, with staff living in, the senior nursing staff were considered to a degree in loco parentis.