To want to settle a generation gap argument: older (female) relative is saying women had to give up work when they got married?

[Winnabella]

Got an older female relative (aunt) who gave up work when she married my uncle (now passed away). They got married in 1964. My parents got married in 1970 and my mum carried on working. My grandmother carried on working until she was in her late 70s. But my aunt goes on about how it 'wasn't acceptable' to carry on working after getting married. She's not done too badly being a SAHM but does go on a bit about the sacrifices she made. She had a cleaner and a housekeeper to do the housework and she and my uncle had 2 children. My cousins often joke about how they had to wear their pyjamas for two weeks. My aunt came round on Sunday and she went on and on about the job she did just before she got married. It is a bit like she's been stuck in time - this was nearly 50 years ago now. Was it the case that women were frowned upon in the 1960s for working if they got married; and how come my mother and grandmother seemed to hold down jobs (my mum part time after I was born and before I started school)

My mum was "moved" to a "more appropriate position" upon marriage - ie demoted from a managerial position to entry level (what would now be nmw role), then when they learned she was pregnant with me she was outright sacked - perfectly legal then this was 1972.

I am 48 and started working in the late 80's, first full time job 1988.

Even into the 2000's I was regularly asked at job interviews (including by women, even younger women and even though it was definitively illegal) :

Was I in a relationship

Was I engaged/married/planning to marry

If I had dc

Was I pregnant/ttc/planning on ttc in the near future

Once I had dd I was asked what childcare I had in place and if I was planning on having more dc

I missed out on jobs and it was barely disguised that it was BECAUSE I was a newlywed/young woman of child bearing age (even though after dd I COULDN'T have more dc and I even mentioned this at interviews if I sensed this attitude - I needed a job!)

I missed out on promotions and training too.

@Brefugee The army was strict on hire purchase/loans anyway! Even in the late 80s, a corporal say had to get permission from the "chain of command" (Even though the corporal could have been in the army years, married with children and was questioned by a young officer who probably had wild lifestyle and debts!)

My dd is 20 and is still experiencing similar issues now - employers and prospective employers try to be more subtle about it but it's very much still an issue, great advances have been made but there's still a LOT of improvement needed.

Women STILL aren't paid equally, aren't employed equally, aren't promoted equally, aren't trained or educated equally...

A friend of mine works in STEM recruitment as a freelance sort of "troubleshooter" she is hired by companies who've been criticised or otherwise alerted to the fact they don't employ enough women and she goes in and finds out exactly why and tells them how to address it. Most of the time she says it goes right back to recruitment advertising - worded in ways that are more likely to attract male applicants AND placed in publications and on websites that are mostly used by male applicants. But that's not the whole story, overall she says usually it's poor outdated attitudes from the very people who hired her, sometimes they're aware of their prejudices but sometimes they aren't. She says the latter tend to be easier to work with as it's sort of "accidental" but the former think they're right to hold those prejudices and are not open to change. Even when it is meaning their company is failing.

As I said, we still have a loooooooong way to go

It is a class issue too though as in it's easier for women to stay in/get manual/entry level/nmw jobs but that's because women's labour isn't valued.

My grandmothers both always worked (returning to work days after giving birth - no laws to protect them on this at this time there was barely sick leave!) but they both worked low paid jobs one as a canteen worker one as a factory worker in a factory that didn't treat its employees well and was desperate to hang onto good employees. Their daughters aimed higher as it were (civil service, banking, admin) but as a result faced more resistance.

Even when the laws changed employers resorted to bullying and intimidation to force women out. That still very much happens

Your family's attitude to your aunt sounds appalling. You need to learn more about what it was like for women and for her back then and why the other women had more choices (it sounds like they had money to back them up? Where did that money come from? And why did the aunt have no access to it? Is she an aunt by marriage?)

It's kind of a joke

Pretty sure your aunt doesn't find it amusing!

My mum had to get my dad to sign for the loan agreement on her car. Even though she was paying for it, and he didn't even drive. 😲 This attitude stretched into the 80s towards women / girls. Age 13, going in the local newsagents to ask to do a paper round. Only to be told 'i don't employ girls'. I did find another round, I had to cycle an extra two miles in the morning to get to it. This one employed girls but he paid them less. He also refused to let the girls mark up the papers in the mornings with the streets / door numbers on them. Boy / man's work you see. All very secret squirrel. The owner wouldn't even show me how to do it. I had to have it done for me by a boy the same age as me. Same as going for a car cleaning job in a garage. The male owner interviewed me in a group interview with a group of boys the same age. But only the boys got the job. I didn't.

Mum born 1939, me born 1970. Parents married 1969. Mum worked pretty much full time from when I was 7.

In my profession women left the job if they got pregnant up to the late 80’s/early 90’s. Part time working didn’t come in until the mid 90’s. When I got pregnant and asked to drop a day a week to four days a week, my boss said he would fight tooth and nail to stop me going part time. When I returned from maternity leave and was trying to negotiate a shift rota, I was told by another boss that he and his wife had struggled when their kids were little so he didn’t see why he should make it easy for me. My husband and I had to work opposite shifts and regularly had to swap the baby other to each other in the work car park at 10pm. It was very difficult and wasn’t even that long ago.

Odd that your aunt seems to still hold a grudge about it now-there was nothing to stop her going back to work in the 80s when presumably she was still only in her 40s if she wanted more money. My mum had a whole new career after children-it was perfectly acceptable for married women to work then!

Yeah my friend’s mum gave up her nurse training on marriage in the early 1950’s. Despite having 6 children, she later qualified as a nurse when her children were older.

Nope, my nan got married (second marriage in fact!!) in the early 50's, had 2 children and continued working as a midwife right up to retirement. My grandad did all the cooking and most of the childcare after working in the mill all day.

It is still within living memory (mine!) when women got equal pay for the same job as men.

Laws may have changed, reality doesn't match. Employers get around the laws with things like VERY slightly different job titles or one small task difference in job description etc

I'm also an army brat, I believe it wasn't until the 90's That serving female soldiers no longer had to ask their CO for permission to marry and if they got pregnant and planned to keep the baby they were out. I think it may even have been classes as a type of "dishonourable discharge" or "discharge for medical reasons" which caused problems getting a job in civvy street too.

Things change slowly

Absolutely

Hell I missed out on jobs because I DARED to wear (smart suit style) trousers to interviews! Jobs I had until the late 90's still had dress codes that required female employees to NOT wear trousers and to wear shoes with a MINIMUM heel height (2.5" most of the time) and tights or stockings.

When I was engaged in the late 90's my employers didn't know and I didn't wear my ring to work, because I knew it would affect access to promotions and I was right. When I revealed I was getting married when I gave my notice as I'd be moving out of area too they were very unhappy and actually said they'd not have promoted me 18 months previously if they'd known I was marrying - note not if they'd known I'd be moving on but if they'd known I'd be marrying. Other colleagues had been passed over for promotions if they were engaged/newlyweds/ttc/having children I'd seen it happen.

women often gave up work voluntarily. I think "voluntarily" is highly debatable here! Societal or employers pressuring means it's not truly voluntary

Certainly 70's there wasn't the childcare there is now, my mum worked after having us but we were left in the care of multiple neighbours, mum returned the favour to them with either normal babysitting or providing childcare for them to work (sometimes she worked part time and she'd sort of team up with another part time working mum and they'd juggle the childcare) until I was about 12 and then I minded my siblings outside of school hours and in school holidays (although parents would also take annual leave in school hols to cover some of it) this was perfectly normal in my generation and community (army)

There weren't nurseries and few childminders. To my recollection that wasn't really available until at least late 80's

Maternity leave was available , maximum 18 weeks on half-pay & back to work when baby was 6 weeks old.

Where you getting this from and when do you think this happened? As far as I'm aware there was no maternity leave or pay until at least 1975 and even then there were stringent and restrictive qualifying conditions. When I had dd in 2001 even, there was still limitations far greater than there are now.

Plus even when legislation exists doesn't mean it's enforced!

Again employers would - and still do - exploit loopholes or even set employees up to fail by eg setting impossible to attain deadlines or tasks, then having a "reason" to sack the woman. I've known that happen to people.

My parents got married in 1967. My mum continued to work as a teacher until she was pregnant in 1974.

@jeannie46 fascinating history there of roles played by teaching unions .

I was just thinking of the hard work which must have been done by unions in the 1970s. Sure there was a reputation of unions calling strikes all the time, but where would we be now without them ?

I've noticed that a lot of the roles people have said their mothers had to resign from were Civil Service or Local Government. I started working in Local Government mid 80s and by that time working conditions in terms of pay, equality, holidays etc were far higher in public service that most private companies . Very different again now of course .

I got married just after I finished teacher training. Had 1st baby one year later followed by 3 more in the next 6 years. I stayed at home after that, because I saw no point in having children if you weren't prepared to look after them. We lived far from both our families, so no-one was available to help out and childcare was non-existent. My husband also taught, but we had very little spare cash. I had a degree. I was still able to read the paper and listen to the news, so I was aware of what was going on in the world, and never seemed to get 'baby-brain' that people complain about.

Adding to the 'yes' brigade. And even in the 90's, there were clauses in work contracts saying women couldn't wear trousers!

Sexism was and still is very much a part of society.

My mother kept working in the 1960s but very few married women did at that point

Loads of married women worked in the 1960s. However, very few mothers of pre-school children worked (other than on a very part time basis). Not all married women were newly weds; older married women with older children work.

One of my granny's friends had to hide her wedding ring in order to keep her job. Everyone who knew had to be careful not to let it slip either, as her husband was out of work so hers was the only wage. This was in the 1950s. My great auntie also had to leave her job. It wasn't just expected, as far as I know, it was commonly company policy.

As a civil servant in the 1970s you had to resign when you got married. It was possible by then to be reinstated at a more junior level....

Absolutely it is a thing. My Nanna had to leave the Civil Service when she married late 60s.

Absolutely - over the last century many employers might not want a married woman, but in context there have always been married women working, even at the turn of the century before the Great War at least a third of women worked I think (rusty brain) but that was likely to be something piecework/menial/factory not a "career." If you haven't got much money you haven't the luxury of raising the children when you could be doing something (probably crap) to bring money in and leaving the older children to look after the younger ones.

I appreciate this isn't quite the situation you're describing. Maybe she did get punted out of her job and just settled into home life - it's easy to fall out of employment and not have the info or confidence to get back in so perhaps she just thought that was that, even if she could have as things did change quite quickly over the 60s to 70s - but if they were comfortable it wouldn't have necessarily been a pressing motivator.

Both my grandmas worked after marrying and having children in the 1950’s. One Grandma only stopped working once she hit 70! My aunties on both sides have all worked in some way whether that be jobs around the children ( nursing , bank clerk, cleaners shop work a mix bag). My mum has always work PT then FT when younger sister started school.
I often wonder if it’s the lower income bracket they both worked so they could get out of the poverty trap? It’s also interesting for me that the men stepped up and a lot of the parenting was split as both adults working (sometimes night shifts/weekend work)

My MIL stopped work once she was married and never returned, it’s always interesting conversations as she is stuck in a time last paying job was over 50 years ago. She had the support of my FIL who was happy for her to re-train as a teacher or other roles but she never did. They actually separated when my husband was 5 as I think they had different values and his next wife worked and they shared parenting his step children and their child together.

My parents both worked in the offices of a private shipping line in Liverpool before they married in 1954 and my mother had to resign. The only married woman in the office had worked there during the war and had stayed on after '45. I was born in' 56 and they changed the rule sometime after probably in the 60s.

My Mother, born 1930's had a friend who work in a bank, she did well with promotions, when she was mid 30's in the early 1960's she met a man who wanted to marry her. She had to choose, man or career as married woman were not allowed to work in the bank. Her discision was complicated by having a staff mortgage which she would also loose and her parents who lived with her loosing their home. She chose not to marry and went on to become a bank manager, very rare for a woman of her generation. I sometimes wonder if she made the right choice.

One of my Grandmas was in the Civil Service and worked after she got married in the late 50's. She only left when she had her first child. I think she had to fight for that though.

One of my aunts got married in the early 80's and her husband's expectation was that she stayed at home, even though she could have continued working.

My parents got married in 1967 in Ireland. My mother worked full time as a doctor until retirement, despite 6 DC. I think she was relatively unusual in that, though. It wasn't impossible to work at all, but I think it was often very difficult.

My DM did, she worked as a bookkeeper in an office and gave up work when she married in 1957. My DPs bought a house but only DF was on the mortgage and house documents until the 70s when DMs name got put on them