I would be a bad mum... if I still lived in Germany! Or: differences in traditions and guidelines

[dodi1978]

I am German, but have lived in the UK for 10 years. In fact, I had somehow acquired a husband, a house and a baby at pretty much exactly 10 years after arrived on an Easyjet flight with one suitcase . Said baby is now almost eight months old.

But that's not relevant here...

What is relevant is the fact that I am a terrible mum! Yes I am! At least if I am judge myself against German guidelines on weaning.

In the UK, the three rules seem to be:

1. Start around six months of age.
2. Avoid salt and sugar.
3. Don't give honey and nuts (ok, and a couple of other things, but the list is small).

And then, there is of course BLW vs. purees etc.

In Germany, BLW seems to be something that nobody has ever heard of. Even friends who have had babies recently seem to be utterly puzzled when I mentioned that some parents don’t give their baby any purees at all.

I’m doing a mixture of purees and finger food, having the little one eat what we eat whenever possible. But according to German guidance, I seem to have got it wrong, because, apparently, babies should have

• A potato – vegetable – meat – puree at lunchtime
• A milk – cereal – broth in the evening
• And a cereal – fruit broth in the morning

Ahem, fail!!! My pancakes with blueberry compote in the morning (which we only have occasionally, by the way) just don’t pass muster.

There are all kinds of other rules and guidelines as well, e.g. that that you should add rapeseed oil (no olive oil before one year!) to certain foods and how much and, oh yes, no yogurt before 10 months (fail!) etc. etc.

Sometimes, dear MNers, I am glad I am living in the UK! I don’t do well with rigid rules. Even the Pampers website has completely different guidance on weaning, when you look at the UK and the German version.

But this made me think… if you are from another country, or have raised a child in another country, what differences have you noticed in the guidance given and in the practice around birth, food, sleep, toilet training etc. as compared to the UK?

I am just asking this out of interest! It’d be great to hear your stories!

Africa - really, I am in AWE:
Nobody has ever heard of milk supply problems. It is just assumed that everyone has enough milk for their baby. I am surrounded by what must be a portion of the poorest population on earth, lots of round bouncing babies. Not saying there aren't any problems at all, just saying nobody is starting with the assumption that breastfeeding 'might go wrong'.

It is actually possible to breastfeed a baby in a sling while walking in the street with 20kg of tomatoes on your head. (ashamed of the many conversations I had about the ideal breastfeeding position and 'saving my back' or 'baby not latching on'…...)

It is actually possible for a 4 year old to walk several miles to school without whinging or needing a snack.

Non walking children will never touch the ground until they can walk.

Attachment parenting and smacking dispensed simultaneously.

Women manage to bring up healthy happy children in what we would consider extreme conditions, and then get sent on a one day course on how to look after children by their expat employees.

ITALY
Well, although I am half Italian, so may be biased - I gave birth to dd1 in Italy and had amazing experience. Three nights in hospital with warm meals and could have baby as much or as little as wanted as standard. Paediatrician available at all times for the smallest pfb concerns.

Ok, a bit over the top with the fevers and the food etc but took it all with a pinch of salt (maybe as I was already prepared for it having partly grown up there)

I did wonder while growing up how amazing my stomach must have been, I was able to eat a bit of chocolate without being struck down suddenly by a terrible mal di pancia (stomach ache!).

ENGLAND
My half Italian side always slightly disconcerted at the fact that other people's children can be pouring snot all over the playgroup/other child's toy and no one bats an eyelid.

I think you'd all enjoy "how Eskimos keep their babies warm" by Mei-Ling Hopgood. Though it's much more interesting reading all these posts first hand :-)

I'm Irish myself living in UK. I'm going to dare to say this at the risk of being shouted at (plus I might need a name change after). I find parents here sooooooo much more fussy than my peers at home. Child-centric helicoptering I'm talking about. Us Irish are more relaxed though I agree with cityofgold everyone in Ireland is obsessed with teething. When DS was a few weeks old everyone said he was teething every time he even whimpered. He's five months now still no sign of teeth.

Bracing myself for a backlash!

Reading some of these has made me realise why 11mo DS got such an audience when he was completely smeared in pasta & tomato sauce in a restaurant in Spain last summer. He had just shoved it in with his fists but his aim hadn't been that accurate so was covered from his forehead to his tummy. Not only did the waitress bring over the other waiters/waitresses from the restaurant we were in but from the neighbouring restaurants too.

I'm in Norway too. Had first dd in UK and am finding the differences between that time and having my second dd in Norway amusing. Highly educated women in my mother-baby group in Norway prefer to give baby food from jars if not giving tiny morsels of bread with liver pate on, or baby porridge. The jars are preferred because the food in them are sterile and they trust that the professionals who have concocted their contents know their stuff. Personally I'm more reluctant to leave my dd's diet in the hands of the food industry. Besides I'd like my dd's to taste what real food tasts like and I don't think having grains (eg bread or porridge) 2-3 times per day gives a balanced enough diet. ignores the fact that youngest dd seems to hate my lovingly prepared nosh and would probably wolf down jars...

No antibiotics unless a diagnosis proves it is useful. This
is quite good iI think though.

I'm also breaking all conventions by not giving my dd cod liver oil. All children should consume this evil from the age of 4 weeks. However, it is utterly rank and I don't find it particularly charming to have the lovely wool clothes (they are great as pp said!) ruined by posseted cod liver oil Not when there are civilised supplements available anyhow!

Sleeping outside, don't do this as I'm petrified of cats, of which every household seems to have at least one. Several ladies in the mother-baby group seem to only give their children their naps outdoor and in their pram. And you must take a long walk with the baby everyday whatever the weather. Is good for them, less its minus 10' ish. Love the outdoorsy attitude in general though.

All I can think of right now

You cannot feed German children under the age of 12 months pulses, because they will die.

Nearly had a heart attack when my British friend fed her baby some Heinz baby jar with lentils in! Luckily her baby survived

I love the way this thread puts everything into perspective.

I'm Irish myself living in UK. I'm going to dare to say this at the risk of being shouted at (plus I might need a name change after). I find parents here sooooooo much more fussy than my peers at home. Child-centric helicoptering I'm talking about. Us Irish are more relaxed though

I'm also Irish living in the UK and OMG yes. English parenting is definitely more anxious and intensive. For example I find it incredibly strange how parents seem to feel its their job to lay on entertainment for every second of their teens' / preteens' free time. I have a theory that its related to family size. While most Irish people of my generation (born 1980) have the standard one to three kids, most of us come from 'big' families, as did our parents and grandparents. No one has the time to helicopter parent five or six kids.

Somuch, agree with what you say about west Africa. I worked there for a while and one of the colleagues I have kept in touch with had her first child 2 days after my son was born. What I found hilarious was that she was reading Gina Ford and all I heard about from British friends was attachment parenting. She is Kenyan middle class though.

Sparked by a statement upthread (this is truly fascinating btw) at what age fo other countries/cultures toilet train? Dd1 is considered very late at 3.7 and yet nothing we try works.

I'm wondering about emigration!

This is fascinating. Spending last Spring to Autumn in Greece I saw babies bundled up like it was an English December. I'm sure DD's tshirt and shorts combo was judged. The little prince/princess idea did seem true there too.

The playgrounds were always deserted in the afternoon but would be massively busy at ten pm and restaurants had toddlers in at the same time. Made sense it was bloody hot in the afternoon.

All children's clothes must be ironed apparently after drying to kill bacteria was one thing I was told. Slattern mother ignored this one!

The loveliest bit was how friendly the locals were to DD; they loved chatting to her. Coming back to unfriendly London was a bit of a shock.

All the Eastern Europeans I know (Latvian, Polish, Chec (sp?) Republic) bundle their babies up like it's minus 50 outside all the time. Hats in doors etc. One European baby I saw today had a vest, trousers, shirt, jacket, hat and 4 times folded blanket on... I was wearing a vest top and jeans, my own boy was in a shirt and trousers....

And they're all obsessed that if you get wet feet you'll catch a cold.

Also, they don't seem to take their kids outside much at all.

"not feeding DC herbal teas to get them to sleep"

Again in Spain, we were given Blevit Digest - powdered chamomile/fennel tea for dd. She loved it, not sure it did any good as she was a rotten sleeper regardless, but we figured in 40C heat any extra liquid had to be a good thing :)

I did feel a bit weird feeding her herbal tea (just regular teabags by that point) when we came back to the UK and all the other littlies were drinking juice, though

Great thread. I live in France but on the border with Luxembourg. The DCs were both born in Luxembourg and their paed is in Luxembourg too. They go to nursery in France.

Luxembourgish children are often raised speaking anything up to four or five languages. The doctors are pretty relaxed about speech as bilingualism (trilingualism etc) can slow stuff down at the beginning. In France they seem much more worried about slow speakers.

In both countries weaning starts at 17-18 weeks. I was laughed out of the place when I described current trends in the UK. I puree weaned from 17w and added some finger food from about 6mo. Both my kids ate proper food a bit earlier than is the norm over here which raised eyebrows, especially at nursery and in restaurants.

Even in hospitals the UK ff heating to 70 etc is not followed at all. Here you add powder to certain brands of mineral water, shake and heat a bit if you want to or if the baby wants, but no more than 40 degrees. The exception of course is for preemies.

I have not heard anything negative about bf'ing; indeed it is encouraged, particularly in Luxembourg. You are left to make your own choice though. None of the debates you see on here.

Babies drink follow on milk until 3, not cows milk. There is pretty solid medical reasoning behind this, and my DC had no cows milk except in food until 3.

I have never been told to just let babies cry it out over here, though controlled crying is practiced to a certain extent.

Children nap in the afternoon, even at school the first few years, and stay up later.

Babies' temperatures are taken rectally and paracetamol also via suppository. Once I'd got over the first time I understood the reasoning and quite happily did both.

There seems to be far less debate about rights and wrongs here. Lists of banned foods seem shorter and people just aren't that bothered about how you do things. Or maybe I don't notice it as I don't engage in baby chat very much.

I find the weaning and feeding guidelines in the UK quite bizarre, and BLW particularly so. Tbh the only cats bum face I ever had re ff/elcs/epidurals etc have been from British expats. I don't recall any French women asking (except family) if I bf or ff. Ditto re vaccinations.

The French do have some very bizarre attitudes to SEN, ASD and PND among other things which make me uncomfortable and uneasy. If my kids prove to have SEN I would probably move back to the UK for their education.

Maybe things are different in Paris, but other than the odd elderly lady tutting at my babies not being wrapped up warm enough, out here I have found parenting pretty stress free, and the support medically is brilliant.

Other than expats in Lux however there are zero activities for SAHMs with babies and toddlers. No baby groups, massage, music, zilch. Means I put my toddlers into nursery pretty much full time to stop us all going mad. French women rtw at 3-6mo.

somewherewest I think you're right, I'm one of seven myself. My parents would have laughed if we'd suggested they had to entertain us 24/7. In fairness I had enough siblings to entertain me.

eyelet older people in France say toilet training should start at 12mo. Current practice is to start it between 18mo and 24mo from what I can tell. They're expected to be day trained by the time they go to school so at about 3.

Lived in Asia and it was common for parents to hit their kids and scold them often, not use car seats in their very expensive cars. Kids are tutored after school rather than do sports or more fun type stuff. Also potty trained much earlier.

No mother and toddler/baby activities in (our part) of Italy either. Took MIL to a couple of DS' activities in London and she said that it would be impossible for mothers to do stuff like that in Italy as they needed to be home preparing lunch for their husbands !

Nancy The first time I saw an Indian child being walloped by his father I nearly died of shock. It was a proper smack - it would have hurt another adult of the same size, and the poor kid was only up to his hip. I never got used to it, and it happens all the time. As I said, even other random adults will do it.

I realise this is going to be controversial, and I cannot condone smacking at all, but all the Indian kids I met were incredibly well-behaved, certainly in school. Really polite and sensible kids.

Far more impressive than being nappy trained as soon as they can walk - they all know their full set of times tables by the age of 7 .

I lived in the UK for a couple of years when DD2 was a baby, and realised then just how different things were.

In France, we were told never to use sheets and blankets in a cot, as a baby could get tangled up in them, so always to use a sleeping bag type thing.

In the UK, the opposite advice was given - babies could overheat in sleeping bags, so always use a sheet and blanket!

There were many other examples of this kind of 180° divergence, so from that point on, I just ignored the official advice and did my own thing

I'm English living in Sweden with a Swedish dp and a 15 month old ds.

in Sweden I am odd because:

I breastfeed ds after a year, the only other people I see doing this are immigrants.

I refused to give ds liquid porridge in a bottle at 4/5/7/10/13 months because I don't see the point when I produce a perfectly good drink for him myself.

I refused to put extra butter in all of ds's food when he dropped from the 98th centile to the 80th centile in weight.

I don't dress ds in full thermal underwear, a snow suit and thick hat/gloves in March if it is +10 (the Swedes dress their kids for the month's expected weather rather than the actual weather on that day)

My son did mostly baby led weaning. Seen as neglect to most Swedes.

I had the occasional glass of whine whist breastfeeding.

If my ds is doing something that is disturbing others or causing a problem I tell him not to do it in a strict voice. This is very frowned upon as "children will be children"

I didn't want to dangle my newborn under the tap to wash his bum when he had done a poo, I just used baby wipes. This is seen as unhygenic.

In the UK I am seen as odd because:

We co-sleep, my sister was horrified and asked how we ever managed to have sex (she asked this at a busy family gathering) I am now pregnant with dc2 so we managed to find ways.

I dress my ds in clothes that are weather appropriate rather than gender appropriate. Even when I buy new clothes I buy the clothes that I think have nice patterns or colours which are often purples/hearts and other "girlie" things. A boy at my ds's nursery regularly comes to nursery in dresses, he has special pink slippers that he wears when he wears one of his dresses as "you have to have pretty slippers when your wearing a dress"

We took my ds skiing for the first time when he was 13 months old.

Ds sleeps outside when possible, even when it is really really cold.

If we are at the park (it has a water play bit) or beach or river I let my son be naked.

I leave ds asleep in his pram outside cafes whilst I have coffee with friends.

Me and dp parent ds equally, dp is currently on paternity leave and dp is just as likely to stay at home if ds is ill (in the future) dp takes ds to playgroup, the park, the Dr just as often as I do.

It sounds like many of you would enjoy "Our babies, ourselves: How Biology and Culture shape the way we parent" by American anthropologist Meredith Small.

I am a Brit married to an American. Our three kids were all born in the US and we are now in Germany.

USA
Local hospital has been certified "Baby friendly" by the UN (or somebody) this meant tons of very supportive and encouraging parenting classes offered before the birth about birth/becoming a parent where mothers and fathers were shown how breastfeeding works and how to support mum and baby.

Labor and birth in the same room with rooming in with baby and a bed for dad/partner.

Lactation specialist to help you before you left hospital.

Breast feeding Unit in the hospital that you could call or visit any time with bambino with questions/concerns about BF. Also hospital shop selling/renting breast pumps, slings etc. etc.

I cloth-diapered first DD and kind of fell off the wagon with second. With both I had a cloth diaper service that dropped off a huge bag of clean cotton diapers every week and took the festering bag of dirty ones away.

My very loud second dd was frequently complimented on her "great voice" by admiring Yanks i.e. you could hear her two rooms away.

Shy children were thought to be suffering a terrible malady that literally needed intervention by child-psychologists at a young age. Parents of shy children were very worried and apologized for their child's social bashfulness as a personality defect. I am talking 5 year olds.

Bragging (boasting) about your children/grandchildren was totally socially acceptable and encouraged by the selling of "Brag Books" small photo albums you carried everywhere to show random strangers on the bus or at the supermarket (maybe outdated by FB etc. now).

Sports mad culture and children started in "pee-wee" soccer/football/baseball/basketball from pre-school years.

Children catered for wherever you went: child hairdressers, party stores, playgrounds, children's menus etc. etc. Every restaurant/store had high-chairs, changing facilities etc. Everyone very welcoming of children, the children were talked to directly and asked about their preferences etc. Any "mean" or overly strict/harsh coach or teacher immediately sacked after complaints from parents.

Many families with three or more kids.

Male Americans wear the same uniform from the age of 2-92. Long shorts past the knee, t-shirt, baseball cap and sneakers.

A lot of anxiety around education and whether your child will "make it" and be a success in a highly competive view of life where there are "winners" and "losers". (I see the same heightened anxiety transferring to the UK)

Germany

Immediately my American children that were considered "so polite" in the US for saying "please" and "thank you" were considered rampaging barbarians in Germany.

Loud children are severely frowned upon here, even being noisy in the park or swimming is a social no-no.

Suddenly my über exuberant 2nd DD was being frequently corrected for being too loud.

Organization is considered to be an innate quality. Children MUST be organized from the moment they enter school (at 6). Teachers hyperventilate if your child forgets the correct book for class.

Children wear huge, expensive, specially designed school backpacks and schlep all their gear and books in and out of school everyday as they have no lockers or anywhere to leave their belongings.

Children from 5 and up take themselves off to Kindergarten or school in the pitch black of winter (possible snow and/or hail) If you walk them to school each day you are not letting your child learn to be independent.

Of course they start school at 7:45 and finish as early as 11:45 to walk back home to eat the hearty midday meal lovingly prepared by Mutti.

Our youngest was 2 when we arrived and I was soon to discover the wonderful world of German tights for boys, helpfully color coordinated in navy, grey or bottle green. Also all children wear hats, gloves and scarves with no complaints. My two year old son found this all way too frustrating and frequently discarded various items of winter clothing before we had reached the bakery across the road. There he outed me as not just a Bad Mother but a foreign one by stripping his coat and sweater off and revealing he was wearing a short-sleeve t-shirt in January. Absolute scandal and horror reigns as German Omas hoik bosoms in unison.

Oh I BFed our three kids for 5 years, 2.5 yrs and 4.5 yrs and never received a negative comment form anyone in the USA. (Of course, many of them probably assumed we'd finished that palaver years previously!) All doctors and medical staff very supportive.

One hilarious if worrying thing done in Germany is that parents stick their toddlers on the front on their skis, and then bomb down a slope with them at about 100mph. Occasionally dads have to take avertive action to avoid using their own children as airbags, however.

In Germany you can buy fennel tea and chamomile tea in little crystals that you add to hot water for babies, and they do like it. Older children have 'Kindertee' which is a kind of tea bag with red fruit tea inside. This is served cold in summer and hot in winter, and is actually better for them than juice.

Most of Europe just whops Evian into the milk powder to make formula, and it works just fine. Some people even just fill bottles from the tap.

Oh yes, and in Germany it's quite normal to stick a massive feather duvet over a baby at any excuse, and interestingly they sleep better because they are not freezing thanks to UK cot death information. Not sure about their mortality stats but I would be surprised if they are massively different from here.

Kindertee