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See all MNHQ comments on this thread

The Jo Cox Commission on Loneliness: are you lonely? What would help?

158 replies

RowanMumsnet · 07/04/2017 11:26

Hello all,

Some of you may have heard of the Jo Cox Commission on Loneliness. The Commission was originally set up by the late Jo Cox MP alongside Seema Kennedy MP, and the aim was to have a cross-party parliamentary focus on the problem of loneliness in UK society.

After Jo's murder last June, Rachel Reeves MP has picked up Jo's baton (still with Seema Kennedy MP co-chairing), and the Commission was renamed in Jo's memory.

Over the course of 2017, the Commission is looking at loneliness among specific groups: older people, carers, people with disabilities, asylum seekers and refugees. And one of the groups they're looking at is new parents - which is where Mumsnet comes in.

We're working with Action for Children, which is the lead charity on the 'parents and young children' strand, to investigate loneliness within this group - and to try to think of things that we can all do to allay the effects of loneliness in this group.

So - with apologies for the long preamble! - here are some questions we'd love your thoughts on:

  1. Do you feel lonely? If so, what do you think are the main causes of that?
  2. If you have children, did you find that the transition to parenthood contributed to isolation or loneliness? If so, what sorts of forms does it take - and what effects does it have on you and your family?
  3. If your children are old enough for the question to apply, do you think they suffer from loneliness? What are the factors, and how does it affect them?
  4. What do you think can be done to help alleviate loneliness among new parents and children? If you've felt lonely, did you find an effective way to address it? Are there particular sorts of support you would find useful?
  5. If you could ask people to do one thing to help tackle loneliness, what would it be?
  6. If you are lonely as a parent, do you think it affects other adults in your family, such as your spouse/co-parent? If so, how? Do you think they are lonely?
  7. And, if you've been lonely, are there any forms of support you really didn't like, or didn't find useful? Are there any approaches you think should be avoided?

Feel free to have a general ramble or bring up other points not referred to in the numbered list - we just want to hear your thoughts really.

We'll use your feedback to inform how we work with the Commission and to help shape the recommendations that the Commission will be making to the government at the end of 2017.

You can find out more about the Commission and the themes it will be addressing here, and you can take a personal pledge to start a conversation with someone here.

Thanks
MNHQ

OP posts:
Sansculottes · 11/04/2017 01:02

I hear you Today. We need to work in this as a society to become truly inclusive.

BlackeyedSusan · 11/04/2017 03:09

I have no energy left for volunteering, what with having two children with disabilities and the school is pretty crap with their needs sometimes.

Needmoresleep · 11/04/2017 10:18

I was really lonely. I had taken redundancy after working full time, parenting young teenagers, running a small business, and weekly visits to a dying father 2.5 hours away. I was burnt out, my health was starting to suffer, and I could see my mother, already showing the early signs of dementia, was going to need support. In contrast to the baby stage where there was lots of toddle groups, NCT etc, this one was up to me to solve.

I found myself sitting at home, watching a lot of daytime TV and without the motivation to fulfil my aim of making my house a home, and still with the stress of my mother angrily refusing help, and moody teenagers. DH was supportive but busy. It got to the point where I became seriously over-invested in the lives of Orange County Housewives. Several NCT friends still lived nearby, but they were used to meeting up without me, and inevitably school run and sports club friends dropped off as the kids got older. To some extent this was my "fault". If you don't nourish friendships, they slip away.

Making new friends as an adult is hard work and needs deliberate effort. I read somewhere that six is the optimum number of friends. I don't think busy people have time for more. Things I did were:

  1. reach out in all sorts of directions. Organise a meet up of old school friends via facebook (as kids get older it becomes easier to reconnect with friends without children, who have maintained good adult social circles), PM MN people (I remember with gratitude a coffee with someone whose mother was diagnosed with dementia the same week in the same town, and the laughter that came from the same sense of gallows humour, and have now shared several years life journey with someone posting about an odd geographical mix of 11+ choices, who just had to live near me.)
  1. Give not take, be brave and be persistent. The latter sounds a bit stalky, but its not easy. I think we as a society have got out of the habit of making friends. It takes effort to suggest to an acquaintance that they join you at something, and easy to be put off if they don't agree. They probably were busy, and so it's not you they are rejecting. Its fine to ask them again, but do allow them the space to say no. What you do find is that plenty of other, nice, sociable, people are also quite lonely and by being open and reaching out, you become less isolated.
  1. Observe role models. Do you know any older women who generate life, energy and openness. What do they do? What mistakes have others (including our own parents) made. Its fine to talk about pensions, but we also need to invest socially, physically and emotionally for our old age.
  1. Busy adults probably only notice an absence of friend support when things start going wrong: work, marriage, children, parents, finance, health. It has to be friends first, support later. If you can reach out and be generous, people will reach back when they hit a tough patch. Good friendships take time and come from mutual support through the difficult bits.
  1. Use social media. MN has hugely enriched my life. I was very grateful to the medical person who held my hand through my DDs medical school application, which needed to be submitted shortly after she had had a near fatal accident, including reading and commenting on the draft personal statement. And so delighted when she thanked me for encouraging her son to aim high in his University choice. Facebook is a great way to reconnect with people, but curate your page carefully, using occasional supportive comments to keep in touch or to announce something interesting, but avoid ranting about Brexit, or posting on the minutiae of life. And make an effort to then physically meet.
  1. Do things you like on your own, if you can't find someone to do them with. Concerts, theatre, talks, organised visits or tours, volunteering. Ideally where there is a chance to meet new people, but also where it does not matter if you don't. I love the ides of the Australian Mens Shed movement. Or challenge yourself. Watch a classic old movie rather than Channel 5. Set yourself a challenge of reading a proper novel each month, cooking a new recipe, or improving your home/garden. You gain confidence and also something to talk about. Use small shops and markets rather than supermarkets, and talk to people.
  1. Don't judge too early. We are surrounded by images of perfect people: partners, parents, friends, children. I think it will be even tougher for the generation growing up with social media, even less able to cope with friends who can be moody, insensitive or whatever. In particular people under stress are not always fun to be around, so you need to take a step back and allow some slack. (Which is not to say that you don't work out boundaries. Meeting someone demanding for a coffee once a month is fine if that is all you want to do.) Historically, and still in many communities, you mix with the people around you and accept them for what they are. Common interest helps, but kindness and trust are equally important.
  1. Accept yourself and acknowledge your own shortcomings. Are you late, do you tend to whine or gossip, do you talk about yourself rather than listen to others, are you shy. You don't need to change yourself, but you can try to be better company.

And so ends my general ramble....

thesandwich · 11/04/2017 11:29

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Phineyj · 11/04/2017 20:57

I think government should be strongly encouraging activities that mix the generations: choirs, orchestras, adult education, co-located day care and elderly care - I agree strongly with the poster who said early in the thread that it's often really helpful to talk over your problems or just to have an interesting chat with someone of a different age. I teach teenagers and find them quite wise sometimes! I also really value a few older friends (two are former bosses and two I met at choir). And when I experienced crushing loneliness in my 30s due to a mix of career problems and infertility, it was the support of younger/older/gay/single friends that got me through - most friends in my own age and situation were too busy with careers and children and didn't know what to say.

Phineyj · 11/04/2017 20:59

If anyone in this thread lives in SE London/Kent and wants to meet for coffee, PM me. I don't mind if you don't like chatting. I have had years of practice with DH...

TitsalinaBumSquash · 11/04/2017 21:39

What would personally help me is more of a community spirit, I'd love to have neighbours that I could chat to, that would turn to me with a problem and me to them in return, I'd love to pop into an elderly neighbours house to make tea, have a chat and do some shopping in they required or weed the garden, I'd happily help tend a community garden or help run a youth club or another group or a community pantry or similar, I'd happily do any job that brought the people that live here together. I have asked and asked but no one seems interested, people are so guarded and suspicious of each other which I guess is due to so much publicity of the horrible things people do to one another, plus everyone seems so busy all the time, working and more working to make ends meet.

BefriendingNetw0rks · 12/04/2017 08:37

Some really interesting points here. Hope you don't mind me crashing the discussion, but I work for Befriending Networks and we have a directory of members always in need of volunteers to help people with isolation and some of whom are there to support parents and/or children - so they may offer a solution from either perspective to some of your members - www.befriending.co.uk/befriendingdirectory.php . Volunteering itself can be beneficial for breaking the cycle of isolation and improving wellbeing - though I appreciate for a busy parent it may not always be a viable option. We came too late to the party to be represented on the Jo Cox Loneliness website, but have been involved in working to tackle loneliness for a number of years now.

mousymary · 12/04/2017 08:39

I have no family and only a few long-distance friends, and the situation has really struck me now the dcs are teens. Whereas for years I was subsumed by family life (which I enjoyed!) now I'm only really necessary as a wallet, a taxi service and catering manager (and even that is now a bit sporadic and criticised).

I have never done the "couples" friendship as dh is highly unsociable and the last time I accepted a dinner party invitation he went completely ape and nearly ran away from home...

I agree with Titsalina - I'd like more community, but in a natural way. Our neighbours don't even wave a hand if you see them. I think people are terrified you want to be friends - ie a bloody nuisance. Also on MN I've seen people sneering at people wanting to make friends at the school gate, at work, with in-laws etc etc, as if trying to make new social contacts when you're an adult is somehow weird .

Ragwort · 12/04/2017 08:41

That's sad Titsalina - I have moved around a lot and everywhere I have lived - from student digs to now living on an estate aged nearly 60 Grin there has always been a great community spirit. I've lost count of the projects/fund raisers/parties/campaigns/volunteering/committees etc etc I've been involved in. In fact sometimes I feel I just want to shut my door and quietly sit in my own home watching tv Grin as there is always something needed to be done in the community.

I wonder where on earth you live in that there is no sense of community? Perhaps it's time to move?

Friday999 · 12/04/2017 12:15

needmoresleep thank you for your fab post, and great suggestions. I'm not lonely at present, but fear future loneliness (ie if anything, god forbid, ever happened to DH) and am trying to expand my friends and networks. It's not easy but I'm making small steps and steady progress!

Needmoresleep · 12/04/2017 13:39
Smile

I think a big issue for mums is that we can be so busy raising kids, and then have a huge drop off when they leave home. Though similar when men or women leave the routine of work. But this is precisely the time you need to invest for your future. Single friends my age seem much better at leading rich and fulfilling social lives, not reliant on children or husbands, presumably because they have always had to.

A repeated issue on the elderly parents board is lonely parents, over reliant on busy sandwich children, unused and unwilling to reach out for friendships elsewhere. no amount of day centres, memory cafes or befriending services will reverse a pattern of "keeping to yourself" built up over years. Ditto with teenagers. I can think of one who is stuck in a rut of anxiety, but is slowly moving towards a job or University because she can see her friends moving on. Peer support is important.

I feel my own mother, who prioritised golf and cruises in her active retirement years, has lost out because she did not invest in family relationships. In extreme old age friends die away (literally), and it is such a pity that she does not have the emotional links with her Grandchildren that would pierce the dementia fog and give her pleasure. She is also lucky that I stepped up, mainly because I wanted to show my own children that family matters.

We worry about our children making friends, but I don't think we give much thought to how adults make friends, or the importance of investing in long term friendships. There is some sort of assumption that you don't have friends because you are somehow not good enough or interesting enough. But instead I think it is about making the effort and making the time. Which is why it is interesting to observe older women who have built and maintained good friendship groups. And it takes ages. Sustainable friendships are built on trust and common history.

My friends are the ones who I can contact if I have had a really difficult time with my mum and need to sit in a winebar, have a moan and then see the funny side. I hope too that I can spot when a friend needs me to reach out, even though they are stressed and their behaviour is a bit off. Because we have a bit of history and good times and I trust them and they trust me.

For me a simple aim is to try and do something positive for someone each day. Perhaps only to be friendly and chatty to the old lady or migrant mum at the bus stop. Or a kind or helpful PM to someone on MN. Or a random text to a friend who is struggling. At some point the investment starts being repaid. Which all sounds a bit twee, but like pensions, the sooner you start investing the better.

thesandwich · 12/04/2017 15:49

Great wise post nms. I have several wonderful friends in their 70's who are my role models for later life - completing doctorates, running voluntary groups etc etc with strong networks.

Friday999 · 12/04/2017 16:14

I can totally see the sense in creating a strong network, but have a very full time job, which just doesn't give me the time to cultivate one. So when the time comes that I need such a network, it's likely to be rather limited. It's hard to find the balance.

mimishimmi · 12/04/2017 16:37

What would help is to stop knocking everyone off in senseless wars...

megletthesecond · 12/04/2017 16:57

friday yy, the parents who work with school age kids seem to have less of a support network than the SAHP's. I'm lucky I only work three days a week but that's three days of playground chat and friends I miss. The SAHP's have each other and don't need to rush off. I can just about hold together a small group of friends by doing drop off and pick up two days a week but I often have to rush off for errands so don't get to hang around. Friday after school is one of my few conversations in the week.

donogue · 12/04/2017 19:51

This is such a useful and helpful thread for me. Thank you so much to everyone for your contributions and especially to needmoresleep for your extremely helpful suggestions.

Like many of you, I too am a single parent. I have one DS in Year 7. He's friendly and popular and now arranges his own social life with his own friends. For years I've had informal social contact with other parents at tennis lessons, swimming lessons etc, but my DS now goes to these things by himself and then goes to the park or other people's houses at the weekend. He's busy and happy - but I feel more isolated and lonely these days, especially at weekends.

I am doing my best to increase my social circle and expand my horizons in all sorts of ways, but it can be hard to meet people you 'gel' with if you don't have regular contact with them (if you meet them e.g. once a week/month as opposed to, say, every day at the school gate), and it's much harder to meet people when you've got older children as you don't have all the baby groups etc to go to.

I have wondered about trying to set up a meet-up for parents (single or otherwise) whose children are now teenagers - i.e. those parents who aren't 'needed' by their children during the day at weekends and who miss the social contact that comes with having primary-aged children. There seem to be quite a lot of us on this thread.

Knittedfrog · 12/04/2017 19:53

I'm an introvert so crave time on my own. I think my loneliness comes from having social anxiety though.

Pandamanda3 · 12/04/2017 22:31

Donogue
I really think your idea is great, I posted up thread that I thought about starting another thread for specifically that reason, a place for everyone to post and chat about there experiences and predicaments and to maybe then get to know people in a similar situation.
There are groups and things out there but not everybody feels they fit the bill for that group like you say single parents of older children what do they do? Parents of disabled children, people with no children, It's hard and if your burdened with social anxieties and confidence blocks then you won't even get over the door, but I think if you know that there are people who feel the same and are maybe in the same or similar situation then it's sort of takes the first barrier away.
I too feel lonley I too have zero confidence in getting out there my dc's are older my marriage has ended.
I can honestly say that my feet are spot welded to the floor at the thought of taking myself off to an event alone for the first time.
I think if you get chatting to people and they understand and you understand them then that's half the battle and more likely to give the confidence needed.
I didn't start the thread though, as I feared Id look silly or nobody would join in and Id end up being the Billy no mates of the cyber world 😢🙈
It's so so hard, but I'm going to take a leap of faith and say I'm in west lancs so if anybody else is in my area in the same boat who just wants to chat grab a coffee go shopping all those things people can take for granted then do pm me Id be very happy to chat!
Your idea is great and I think you should start your meet up.

daftgeranium · 12/04/2017 22:34

Instead of people who are lucky enough to have children, how about focusing on the large numbers of women who find themselves involuntarily childless in their 40s, and stigmatized by everyone else in society?

Ragwort · 13/04/2017 08:45

how about focusing on the large numbers of women who find themselves involuntarily childless in their 40s, and stigmatized by everyone else in society?

That is a really sweeping statement, do you honestly believe it?

BillSykesDog · 13/04/2017 09:15

Actually Ragwort I agree with her. More than 1 in 5 women won't have children these days and for the majority of them it's not planned. I had fertility issues and am lucky enough to have three children now, but even being childless getting on for my mid 30s I was very, very much starting to feel the stigma of not having children.

I think unless you've been unwillingly childless it's really difficult to understand how centred around child rearing society is once you reach a certain age and how limited options can be for the childless, e.g. an assumption the childless want a party lifestyle.

It can be an extremely lonely situation to be in.

Needmoresleep · 13/04/2017 09:48

daft, people are lonely at all ages for different reasons.

I agree that though the small baby stage can be stressful, difficult and potentially dangerous if PND is present, there is often quite a lot of support out there. I found eventually, once I had adjusted to being a parent, it was a bit like University, in that you are suddenly thrown together with a lot of people with different backgrounds but with something in common and time to make good friends.

My triggers were a combination of children growing and giving up work, with DH very busy at work and my life dominated by trying to sort out care and living for a frightened, angry and aggressive mother with dementia desperately clinging to her independence with all the family politics that this entails. But I can see that finding friendship group conversations now revolve round potty training and 3+ entrance exams would be equally difficult. I also agree with Friday, busyness is a problem. When I stopped work I realised that I had not seen people I considered my friends for a decade. It may be different elsewhere but in London contact has to be deliberate, but so do children's social lives (including sports, homework and those fruitless piano lessons) and these take priority. And that divorce or bereavement will again leave people sitting looking at four walls, damaged confidence, and wondering what to do next. In retrospect my advice would be to maintain contact with a very occasional "I was just thinking of you and wondered how you were", or "I loved your post about .." message through Facebook, so it is easier to follow up with a "I will be in your town and wondered whether you would like to meet up for a coffee" when you can. My experience has been that you find you still like people you used to like despite a long gap, and the joy of social media is the ability to link up.

I am no sociologist but I assume we want friends:

  • to validate ourselves. The perfect end to an awful day is to laugh with a friend and be reassured that you are alright, even if your boss, husband, teenager, etc tells you, you are not.
  • to share experiences. How much nicer to discuss a play, or even a PTA meeting, with a friend.
  • to shared history and therefore experience. I found year 13 difficult as my fledgling adult children faced important choices and rejection. A friend phoned me yesterday going through the same and knowing that I had known them from very young. No solutions, a few ideas, and I could share that she is a great mother and has raised lovely children.
  • motivation. A friend has asked me to help her with her allotment today. Not really my sort of thing, but different, and I should come away with some fresh veg (possibly wrong season?!) and motivation to stick to my diet. I might even walk there.

I am sure there are other reasons. My sense is that the solutions lie somehow in an analysis, at different stages of our lives, of why we need friends and why people struggle to make friends. I suspect some of the answer will be modern living, and the fact many of us simply don't know how to make friends. I also suspect that what is a problem now could be a crisis in a generation's time.

My concern is that the Commission will do what Government policy makers always seem to do, and that is call in "stakeholders" (a phrase that always makes me think of Berni Inns) with specific interests to peddle. I find it telling that they are concentrating on specific groups: new parents, older people, carers, people with disabilities, asylum seekers and refugees. Not that these groups don't have specific problems but these are areas where organisations will be pushing for funding. Social links may be a bit like education. Some groups need extra help but everyone needs community bonds.

There is always a focus on funding, but more might be done with enabling. How can we build open, welcoming and accepting communities in big cities or in rural areas (and everywhere in between). An empty nester in their early fifties could get involved in a local gardening club, which in turn links with a local school, which in turn encourages mothers from different communities to work together on a project to improve the local public realm. Lots of gains, including within communities that might otherwise self-isolate, not much money needed. (And barriers are probably imposed ones like DRB checks, public liability insurance etc.) I like near the home of the
guerrilla gardening movement and love coming across patches of bright flowers. And plan, when I next need to spend time down with my mum, to link up with the Dorset Devils, patrolling South Coast beauty spots in a group and picking up litter. Better still someone who gets involved in community activity in their fifties has a good chance of maintaining those links through the years, and thus be able to support ailing peers, or receive support themselves.

I was once involved in the major regeneration of a large estate in the North, where the housing management were closely involved with the tenants association. Whilst canvassing individual tenants they uncovered some shocking examples of social isolation. The good people of the tenants association worked to support them. The Council listened and were determined to resolve physical problems (access to the estate was via a single road with a couple of shops, which is where the druggies congregated which meant no one on the estate felt safe to leave after dark).

There is something very wrong and across society, and it is getting worse. It would be reassuring to think that this commission were focussed on the basic problem, and were approaching it more like marketing executives addressing consumer need, rather than a London based, lets call in the vested interests and consider only certain high profile groups, standard approach to policy making.

End of rant.

waitinforsuperman · 13/04/2017 10:16

I worry about the approach being a bit Dave Cameron's "Big Society". I wonder if there needs to be something substantial at the core of this work or it will just be a repeat. My feelings are that mental health issues are perhaps central - and of course are cross cutting. But i know that's only one possible view.
How do you stop the vision simply turning into well intentioned papering over the cracks again .

PhoenixMama · 13/04/2017 10:21

I'm terribly lonely and with DD at her dad's I'm facing the next 4 days of "family fun bank holiday" totally on my own. I have a small group of friends I talk to most weeks but I don't SEE anyone. Don't share experiences or laughs or face to face time.

I'm a single parent and feel like a pariah. Most of my friends only invite me out when I'm in a relationship (which I'm not at the moment) and the rest of the time they never think about me on the weekends. They will literally get together with other families and not invite me/us. Its hard not to take it personally.

Despite being english I grew up in North America and I have to say I think the brits are very, very hard to make friends with, especially as you get older. A lot of my british friends have a super close (impenetrable) group of school or uni friends that they spend the majority of their free time with, followed by NCT and then school gates/reception relationships. The majority of new friends I've made in the last few years are not from Britain, but also because of that they often move on (Oz, NZ, America, Canada, etc) and now more and more the of Europeans are moving away too.

I have no idea what the answer is... making friends is hard work and takes time, but also needs both sides to invest equally. As pp said I often find myself in the position of social coordinator and then people bail (what is the problem with people bailing constantly!?) or can't make it. It's very hard.

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