What do you think about spouses/partners staying overnight on postnatal wards?

[RowanMumsnet]

Hello

The organisation Birthrights (with whom we've done some stuff in the past) are planning a new campaign called First Night, and wanted to know whether it's something MN could support - so we said we'd ask you lot!

Here's Birthrights' description of the campaign:

'Birthrights is a human rights in childbirth charity, and we will be launching a campaign later this year to ensure women aren't left alone on often over-staffed postnatal wards, but instead can choose to have their partner remain with them overnight. We will be researching what's important to women, partners and staff, the barriers and benefits, and working with units who've implemented this policy to draw up best practice guidelines to use as they lobby for change.'

So please let us know what you think. Is this something you'd like us to swing behind?

Thanks
MNHQ

Oh. That is bad behaviour FieldRose.

I'm giving birth in a birth center in Australia. we can have the room for 24 hours post birth which includes a double bed so OH can stay. My local normal maternity hospital has all private rooms (it's a public hospital) so partners can stay for up to 7 days. why not work on increasing private rooms for post natal women so they can get on a do their own baby thing rather then have all and sundry from everyone else hanging about.

I'm glad so many sensible, articulate people have posted on this thread. My immediate reaction was that while it would be nice to have support on the postnatal ward I'd much rather that support was from a qualified, empathetic health professional and then my subsequent thoughts were regarding strange men on the ward, issues pertinent to abused women and the fact that postnatal wards are not currently set up to offer an acceptable level of comfort to many patients now never mind a load of extra randoms.

I say all this as somebody who campaigns for better support for pregnancy, birth and postnatal care and someone who personally finds the idea of staying on a postnatal ward with all the likelihood of a disturbed night's sleep so unappealing that it was a small part of my individual rationale for having home births. My opinion (admittedly based mainly on anecdotes and relatively little but some evidence) is that postnatal wards as they currently stand could be much improved for overnight care and having extra people using the facilities overnight will just make this problem worse.

I have not read this thread, as I have seen this argument before, and it got ugly. If this has gone that way then it will not be representative, as the strong views of some will put many people off posting. You should do a survey to get a proper sample.

Personally, I was desperate for my partner to be allowed to stay, so it is a HUGE yes please from me.

That is a bloody stupid, dangerous use of a totally inadequate set of compromised data.

A hospital policy was changed on the basis of those figures?

Actual .

I had DC1 28 years ago when we had to stay in for 5 days. Obviously the staffing was much better then, but we all survived without our DH there.

I had DC5 by CS 7 years ago. I only stayed in 3 days. The patients toilet, with a big sign on it saying patients only, was permanently occupied by other people's family. The woman opposite had a constant flow of visitors who talked non-stop and stared at everyone else. I can't think of anything worse than being expected to put up with other people's DPs all night as well.

The campaign would be better getting hospitals properly staffed again.

Another no to this proposed campaign.

Well, Birthright.org, since you are reading the thread I think you should answer the question posed by ReallyFuckingFedUp on Thu 10-Jul-14 14:11:18 (and repeated by others several times), namely -

"Birthrights if you are reading this can you please answer my question? If 1 out of 4 women experiences domestic violence and the majority of DV starts or escalates with pregnancy why do you think having men on the ward is a good thing?"

Also, Birthright.org, you have stated in response to earlier posts, "Lots of the women we have spoken to have mentioned feeling lonely, unsupported, unable to reach a glass of water or pick up their babies and unable to attract the attention of staff in time to meet their needs." This does not mean that they need their partners there; it means THEY NEED THE POST-NATAL WARD TO BE ADEQUATELY STAFFED BY COMPETENT MIDWIVES AND ASSISTANTS.

You seem to be a bit lacking in looking at the likely psychology behind the answers you got to your inadequate small survey. Please ponder TeWiSavesTheDay's thoughtful response (Thu 10-Jul-14 21:50:59) -

"I think birthright, that the issue is that you are focusing on the difference having a partner present made to that one woman - and not the impact that stranger had on all the other people on the ward."

"Please make sure you address this (and not by saying that women who are uncomfortable can asked to be moved somewhere else - that solution breaks my heart. They won't. They'll just suffer.)" [my bolding]

I'd also like to draw your attention to the post by mathanxiety Thu 10-Jul-14 22:13:18

"Far better to improve management, staffing and training of staff, and to prioritise sensitive staff responsiveness to patients."

"Don't pass the buck to people who don't know what they're doing, may end up snoring all night, may possibly mess up the toilets or occupy them when patients need them, and will definitely make patients feel very uncomfortable. I include women along with men here."

I absolutely agree. Your proposed campaign is passing the buck. You may have convinced yourself that it's best to ask for the financially achievable sticking plaster (partner sleepovers) rather than the real but more expensive solution (more and better trained staff) - but it really isn't. Because if you did achieve this, what you really do is reduce the pressure to provide the real solution. Once passed, bucks have a propensity to stay passed.

MNHQ, I'm inclined to side with Sabrinnnnnnnna's observation -
"Can I just say, I would want MN to go the complete other way. I would expect them to campaign for the protection of women's spaces and new mothers' privacy after birth - not campaign the opposite. Improvements in maternity wards/after birth care would be very welcome though."

No. I think our trust has worked hard to eliminate mixed sex wards. Having blokes in the ward 24 hours a day, and potentially taking up the occupancy from 4 to 8 adults, would be a huge step backwards. It's a very vulnerable time for women with stitches, bleeding, catheters... No time to be on a mixed sex ward.

I had a horrendous first night with DD. she slept all day then screamed all night, and I was exhausted from 2 nights of no sleep during labour. But while we still have wards I think they need to be single sex at night.

And "over-staffed" is not helping the argument :)

I'm surprised by how strong the reaction is to this. Personally I would have loved my partner to stay after the birth of our children - it felt barbaric for him to have to leave only a few hours after their arrival and he found it very tough. This was a few years ago and I remember thinking that this would change and people in the future would think it very strange that fathers were excluded so soon after birth (much as we now find it odd to think that men in the past didn't attend the actual birth). I agree that there are practical considerations but rather than dismiss it out of hand I think that this is definitely a proposal that should be explored further.

I will gladly sacrifice my right to have my partner staying overnight on a postnatal ward to ensure the comfort and safety of another woman. Not least because that woman could be me.

I was knackered and didn't care if he was there or not. I gave birth at about 3am both times so was just glad everyone went home by the time evening finally came. As I bled really heavily I probably preferred having some space to myself, I definitely wouldn't have wanted other women's partners around. keeping it women only is sensible. People can have a family party when they get home. You're in a hospital for a reason.

think its a very good idea. my dh would have been fab. I was in for over a week each time, and could have done with his support.

Yes! My dh was with me the whole time sleeping on uncomfortable chairs he was my hero couldn't have done it without him. other people's partners were their but I didn't notice them or feel uncomfortable, just closed my curtain and got on with it just the 3 of us.
Now as I plan to do it a second time he won't be able to be with me as much as his support will probably be needed more at home with dd1.

I had the benefit (for most of my deliveries) of well-run hospitals where there were enough staff, well-trained, responsive and with a terrific level of morale. Everything you would like to see in a post-op situation or a situation where patients were dealing with stitches, in other words.

What makes post-CS or episiotomy care any less of a post-op situation than recovery from keyhole gallbladder removal? Do we envision everyone's granny staying to fetch bedpans for appendix patients?

Before I had my child and heard about women entering the ward "and this is where we say goodbye to Dad" - I was really angry for them.

But then being on a ward with 6 other women who have just given birth - personal space was so limited (it was a horrendous experience for me) and having men there would have made it so much worse.

I found visiting times really difficult because the families would have male relatives visiting and trying to breastfeed a newborn with men across the room - it was a case of having to pull the curtain across awkwardly with stitches and I was so glad to leave!!

I think that it would make sense to have more private areas for the just-given-birth mothers to spend time with their loving partners, but with the NHS as it is, it's unlikely isn't it.

I have just had a discussion with a co worker, between the two of us and just off the top of our heads we could think of over 200 women who have been clients of ours over the last few years (3/4)who have had at least one of the following apply on a post natal ward.

1. Sexually assaulted by a partner
2. Physically assaulted by partner
3. Turfed out of the bed so partner can sleep(this happened to me as well)
4. Meal taken by partner

5.made to lie to HCP to be discharged (some clients have died because of this)

1. Wanted to disclose abuse but couldn't
2. Wanted to enlist help to flee abuse at time of discharge but couldn't (a huge amount)
3. Couldn't obtain medical support needed due to fear
4. Asked for HCP assistance in sending partner home with no success

10. Threatened and verbally abused and ridiculed by partner for asking for midwife support. 11. Partner staying to check patient did not let on she spoke English 12. Partner staying to check patient did not show genitals or breasts to a HCP 13. Partner verbally abusing and threatening another patient because his/her sleep was disrupted (the his/her as its been something disclosed to us by same sex couples as well) 14. Partner assaulting HCP

These incidents were an issue outside of the open visiting times in hospitals that do not allow visitors to stay over so these are the ones who snuck in yet nobody was able to stop it,imagine how much harder it would be if they didn't have to sneak. I have intentionally left things off that involved partners who went home

birthright as a domestic violence support service provider I am imploring you to rethink your campaign.

That is awful Needs

Sorry I haven't read the whole thread but:

I would definitely not support having blanket permission for every woman's partner to stay overnight. Even though I could definitely have done with my own lovely DH's support during the 5 nights I had to stay in with a newborn, allowing this would be a mistake. Too many nasty, abusive, lecherous and substance-abusing people are perfectly capable of getting someone pregnant and starting to demand access to the postnatal ward, there are an awful lot of men out there who I wouldn't want on the ward and the NHS is not equipped to run a vetting service to only let the nice ones in.

They could possibly consider it as an option in hospitals which can be arranged so that there are both female-only wards with no over-night men and also some where they are allowed - with bed spaces balanced so that any woman can request and get a bed on the female-only ward - but there would still need to be some kind some kind of vetting system to block the most unsavoury characters and that's not going to be easy or popular.

I would have slightly less qualms about women being allowed a female supporter to stay with them the first night. There still could be issues but it would be less worrying.

I would have minimal problems with a male partner being allowed to stay if the woman has a private en-suite room - however, there would still need to be some kind of vetting to ensure that this wasn't used as a pathway for an abusive controlling partner to ensure that a woman never got an opportunity to ask for help to escape.

needs post says it all.

Birthrights You think it doesnt happen, but it does. You think that all couples who say they want the non birthing partner to stay with the mother are caring and loving and want to bond, you are wrong.

The most basic human right is the right to live free of abuse, fight for that and then maybe we will consider supporting your other campaigns, but dont hold your breath.

Another NO from me. I recently gave birth at Kings Collges hospital in SE London and was very unpleasantly surprised to discover that the 4 bedded post natal ward I was in had 3 men staying over - meaning the ward had 7 adults plus 4 babies on it. I HATED having these strange men just a few feet from my bedside. I had a pretty good birth but I still had JUST GIVEN BIRTH and instinctively did not want strange men in my bedroom! It's not something I would want at any time in my life but FFS it was 2 hours after childbirth.I had a second degree tear, lots of bleeding, and I looked like something out of a horror movie(blood stained) on arrival in the post-natal ward (because there was no shower in the labour room and the bath was out of use due to a water contamination problem).
The men thankfully were not violent etc, but they changed the dynamic of the ward for me and I was desperate to get home to a safe environment. I begged to be allowed home the next day. At breakfast I had to join a queue at the tea/cereal station made up 50% of men! The curtains on the wards never quite close properly and I felt very vulnerable and exposed when breastfeeding so instead of having skin to skin I had to faff around with clothes on.
The most ridiculous thing was the talk the midwife gave us during the morning covering everything from care of stitches to contraception to pelvic floor issues. The fecking men were all present so who do you think asked lots of (loud) questions! Not the women. I didn't feel like discussing personal and sensitive details in front of 3 strange men.

Please, NHS, give post natal women the same protection on wards as you give other women.

Definitely not. I was in a middle bay on the ward with no baby after having my son at 29 weeks. I got stared at by everyone one through the day even when I was moved into a side room. The night was the only time I wasn't forgot enough by most staff because they were less busy and the ward was quieter.

Powerful post, Needs.

Another one voting for NOT allowing partners to be able to stay over night. I thinks Needs post said it all from the mother's safety point of view. Also have potentially double the number of people in the ward would place considerable pressure on bathroom / toilets, not to mention infection control. There has been such pressure to have single sex wards and it has taken a lot of money to enable this to happen, so to permit men to stay would completely undermine this policy.

I would go further and argue for visitor numbers visiting times to be radically reduced as well as it can be very difficult to deliver discreet intimate care in a ward over run with visitors. and before anyone says it couldn't be done - visitor numbers are successfully restricted on ITUs.

I live in HK, where the health service is modelled on the NHS. The public hospitals have 2 hrs a day visiting hrs. That's it. Everyone complains about it before they have their first baby. When they come out they all say ' it's such a good policy" because it cuts the noise down on the wards by a huge amount and women whose babies aren't sleeping at night can rest in the day. The staffing is better though. This is the answer, not having a bunch of clueless blokes meandering around 24/7

And anyway, the whole idea is very first-baby orientated. When I had my second and third babies, DH and I were both keen that he get back home ASAP so that he could be there when DC1/DC2 woke up and make things as normal as possible for them. I can't believe many couples with another child at home would want to both stay in hospital with the newborn for any length of time.

I know! Let's bring all the older siblings to stay in the post-natal ward too. That should just complete the experience.