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MNHQ

What do you think about spouses/partners staying overnight on postnatal wards?

18 replies

RowanMumsnet · 10/07/2014 11:31

Hello

The organisation Birthrights (with whom we've done some stuff in the past) are planning a new campaign called First Night, and wanted to know whether it's something MN could support - so we said we'd ask you lot!

Here's Birthrights' description of the campaign:

'Birthrights is a human rights in childbirth charity, and we will be launching a campaign later this year to ensure women aren't left alone on often over-staffed postnatal wards, but instead can choose to have their partner remain with them overnight. We will be researching what's important to women, partners and staff, the barriers and benefits, and working with units who've implemented this policy to draw up best practice guidelines to use as they lobby for change.'

So please let us know what you think. Is this something you'd like us to swing behind?

Thanks
MNHQ

Go to post
MNHQ

RowanMumsnet · 10/07/2014 13:34

Thanks very much for all these (and sorry about the typo in the OP). Fully take on board that the response is very much against so far.

Just a couple of things from Birthrights to address some of the questions that have been raised:

'We can understand these kind of concerns. They are exactly the sorts of things raised by units as reasons partners can't stay.

However, units who have welcomed partners have found that a few simple (often cost-free) measures enabling safe and private spaces for those who need it, while allowing women to choose to keep their partners by their side, has helped the new family to bond, ensured the mother has all her needs met even when wards are short-staffed, makes the often-confusing first day feel much less isolating and lonely for women, and makes life easier for the staff so they can concentrate on giving specialist medical help and breastfeeding support.

Over the next few months we will be pulling together lots of research, interviewing midwives, developing guidelines and talking to women (like you) to ensure our campaign is getting it right. Many of the women who contact us have explained that just having their partners with them would have made an enormous difference to their postnatal experience - something we all know is a worryingly patchy in the UK.'

They also say that they're drawing up possible best practice guidelines, to include things like providing private rooms when requested, zero tolerance policies when the rules aren't stuck to, and having areas of the wards where women who don't want their partners present can remain private.

MNHQ

RowanMumsnet · 10/07/2014 15:55

Thanks again. We'll let the thread run on for a bit but just to clarify: we started this thread to see what MNers think, because that's what we do before we sign up to external campaigns. And obviously in this case the weight of opinion (unless something dramatic changes) is very much a 'no'. Thanks for all your thoughts, as always Flowers

MNHQ

RowanMumsnet · 10/07/2014 16:22

@mignonette

Mumsnet- how many of your staff have ever worked as HCPs'? My BPis rising at the thought of having to police such policies. I feel dreadfully sorry for my friends working in OB/GYN who now have the possibility of this to contend with too.

Stick to encouraging units to decision make on an individual basis please- plenty do allow high risk patients or those with extra needs to have enhanced family presence.

I am so fucking furious that you appear to have made up your minds already. Please leave this be and stop piling on yet more pressure onto my VERY over worked colleagues.

Think you've misunderstood, mignonette.

This isn't MNHQ's campaign.

We wanted to know what MNers thought - and you've told us, very clearly.

MNHQ

RowanMumsnet · 10/07/2014 16:28

@mignonette

I understand entirely Rowan and I know it isn't your campaign. :)

HCP's feel under attack from all quarters and this is yet another potential stick to beat us with. I would hope that MN has the sense to not engage in it and instead campaign for better funding.

Ah right, apologies. Your asking us whether we had worked as HCPs made us think you thought this was our initiative, and your line 'I am so fucking furious that you appear to have made up your minds already' did rather look as though it was aimed at us.

As we've already said, the weight of opinion on here make it look pretty certain that we won't be signing up, unless something changes very dramatically.

MNHQ

RowanMumsnet · 10/07/2014 17:29

@CinnabarRed

RowanMumsnet - surely this thread highlights that your next campaign ^must6be to improve the provision of care on post-natal wards? Please?

That's the campaign I want.

Hello! We've been thinking about the postnatal issue for a while. Do please (CulturalBear) use the Mumsnet Campaigns topic to start a thread about it and see what other MNers think. Of course we do already have the Bounty Mutiny and Miscarriage Care campaigns, which means right now we're already making quite a lot of requests of hospitals and the government bodies related to health. So it might not be something we can do straight away, just in terms of how effective we can be, and how many 'asks' we can reasonably make at one time: but as ever we're happy to hear your views.

MNHQ

RowanMumsnet · 10/07/2014 21:37

Evening all

Arf at this being the best way to keep Bounty reps at bay Wink

Just to be clear: it's obvious from this that the vast majority are clearly opposed, so MNHQ won't be signing up if this campaign goes ahead.

Birthrights have given us a bit more detail now and we'll post that up in a moment, just for your info.

Can we just say, though, that - much as this is clearly though to be misguided by almost all of you - Birthrights have done good stuff on the rights of women to choice, good information, and good care in childbirth. We have no reason at all to think their intentions are anything other than honourable, and we'd be grateful if posters could hold back a bit on implying that they are motivated by a desire to cut costs or champion the rights of men at all costs. That's just not our experience of them, and we're sure they've heard your objections very loudly and very clearly. Please remember that there are real women behind this (quite small) organisation, and imagine how you'd feel if this thread was about your idea (and it is still an idea at the moment).

We'll post up their response in a mo.

MNHQ

RowanMumsnet · 10/07/2014 21:40

Response from Birthrights:

'Thanks for sharing your views so frankly. We knew we could rely on Mumsnetters to tell us what they think! We are of course disappointed not to have had a more positive response and felt we should clarify a few things and explain the current context and the thinking behind the campaign as, whether or not you agree with us, the motivation here is very much to respond the needs of vulnerable postnatal women.

The idea for the campaign was born out of a presentation at our Dignity in Childbirth Forum last year, where Doncaster and Bassetlaw NHS trust successfully trialled allowing partners to stay overnight and, following the success of the trial, rolled this out across their service. Since the roll-out the number of women choosing to have partners stay overnight has steadily increased, feedback has been overwhelmingly positive, staff have welcomed it and there are future plans to incorporate more facilities for partners if/when there is a redesign. You can read more about this on p.54 of our 'Projects and Perspectives' document: www.birthrights.org.uk/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2013/10/Birthrights-Projects-and-Perspectives.pdf

Birthrights spends a lot of time talking to women about negative experiences in their maternity care as well as promoting and discussing initiatives with positive intentions such as the one in Doncaster. Lots of the women we have spoken to have mentioned feeling lonely, unsupported, unable to reach a glass of water or pick up their babies and unable to attract the attention of staff in time to meet their needs. There has also been lots of press over the past year about problems in UK postnatal care that very much reflects the conversations we've been having with individuals.

We want all women to have as positive pregnancy, birth and postnatal journeys as possible so with the Doncaster project in mind and the voices of the women we work with ringing in our ears we began to do some thinking. We discovered that a number of units are bringing in a partners policy like Doncaster's with positive results. We felt these policies were responding to a real need and could be a relatively easy way for over-stretched units to offer a more welcoming environment to postnatal mothers. We saw that in units where the schemes have been trialled there's been a really swift and tangible positive outcome on new families without necessitating much financial outlay making it much easier to implement. This is when we decided to focus our energies on researching this idea and seeing whether we could campaign to roll out these policies more broadly.

Phase one of our campaign is research and we have always planned to survey women as widely as possible to see what their feelings are about the pros and cons of the campaign. One of the ways we were keen for Mumsnet to support us was by canvassing you for your views as we are really keen to know that we are focusing on something useful. Your response gives us much to reflect on. As our 'real life' canvassing of opinions has been so positive we are keen to continue to undertake a broader survey of women and midwives, but rest assured if the response is negative we will devote our attention to other areas that support our mission to improve women's experiences of pregnancy, birth and new motherhood by promoting respect for human rights.'

MNHQ

RowanMumsnet · 10/07/2014 22:39

@VivaLeBeaver

I do hope that mnhq tell birthright our thoughts and not just decline to be involved.

Hopefully they might think twice about the campaign.

Birthrights are reading the thread Viva - they're fully aware that this has gone down very badly here!

MNHQ

RowanMumsnet · 10/07/2014 22:40

@ADishBestEatenCold

"I do hope that mnhq tell birthright our thoughts and not just decline to be involved"

Has there been any indication from MNHQ that they are going to decline to be involved? (and, hopefully tell Birthrights our thoughts)

Yes! We are not going to be involved and Birthrights are reading the thread.

MNHQ

RowanMumsnet · 11/07/2014 10:19

@Itsfab

"Think about how you would feel if this was your idea...."

Well, a crap idea can not be accepted because someone might be offended or hurt when it is pointed out how stupid it is Hmm.

We're not suggesting that the idea should be accepted, or that MNers can't say they think it's stupid.

We're just making a small plea for people not to question the personal motives of the women behind this small organisation. People can have misguided ideas (which MNers clearly think this is) without having bad motivations.

MNHQ

RowanMumsnet · 11/07/2014 10:29

@Itsfab

Yet they are still carrying on thinking it will be approved

"if the response is negative..."

How much more cases of no do they need to accept it is negative?

Their plans are to consult beyond Mumsnet, Itsfab. Pretty sure they have very fully taken on board that the MN response is very much a 'no', but we're not the only people they're talking to.

MNHQ

RowanMumsnet · 11/07/2014 10:55

@sarine1

Rowan, Agree that people should aim to be constructive but... if you're a campaigning organisation seeking to influence policy (which this organisation is) then it needs to be accepted that people will be highly critical if you come up with dangerous ideas which you are seeking to influence the NHS with. I don't have the influence that they have or seek to have - this is the only way I can emphasis what an anti-women / unsafe proposal this is. (and am horrified to hear that it appears to be being rolled out in some hospitals)

There's absolutely no problem with criticism - the thread just threatened to veer off into something a bit more personalised and slightly abusive at points, so we were just sticking our oar in to ask posters to bear in mind that there are real people behind this idea, who've worked long and hard to put things like women's choices and rights in childbirth on the agenda.

Having been on the wrong end of threads involving upset/cross MNers in the past, I can confirm that it can be surprisingly bruising and upsetting (even when you know you've well and truly cocked up something up Wink).

Someone mentioned suspending the thread given that we (MNHQ) have confirmed we won't be taking part in the campaign. It's not something we would normally do but we're happy to do it here if lots of you think it's the best course.

MNHQ

RowanMumsnet · 11/07/2014 11:00

@Heels99

Really hope mumsnet don't support this misguided csmpaign

We're not going to support it Heels99

MNHQ

RowanMumsnet · 11/07/2014 11:21

Another response from Birthrights:

"Dear all
As MNHQ have said we have been actively reading and engaging with the thread and your concerns. Though the tone of the response has given us a sleepless night it has been hugely useful in helpful us decide if and what we want to do now and also how vital it is that we communicate our aims around this idea more effectively as it seems very easy for our motivation to be misconstrued.

So, to address some of your specific concerns (and we do wish we could reply individually):

  • Birthrights is a women's rights organisation. The idea behind this initiative is not to insist that all partners stay overnight but to put an end to the frequent situation where a woman (tired, vulnerable and overwhelmed) is begging for her partner to be allowed to stay and s/he is forced to leave. We just want policies to reflect a woman's frequent need to be supported by someone she knows immediately after birth and permit her to make that choice
  • One of the most compelling sources when we were considering this idea were the results of the survey we did with Mumsnetters last year. In many of the responses women told us of feeling alone and uncared for postnatally.
  • We agree that at the moment the research is insufficient. A big part of the campaign has always been undertaking more in- depth research but we hold our hands up and admit that we were working on the presumption that this was essentially a good idea and that the research would demonstrate this
  • So, thanks to your feedback, we are looking at the research phase in a different way. These policies are being rolled out in a growing number of units. If they are not working for women we really need to know, just as is they are working we need to know how and why
  • We will continue our plan to do a broader survey of women asking more specific questions about their experiences and thoughts about partners policies. We will also continue our plan to do research at units who have rolled put this policy but now we will put more emphasis on finding units who are happy to work with us on an in-depth audit to ensure we are really capturing women's experiences and thoughts on whether it is working. We will use this thread and the specific areas of concern to help us formulate questions to ask.
  • as planned we will also do work to discover the practicalities of these policies. We know from talking to our midwifery contacts that they have thought about noise, privacy, vulnerable women, potential domestic abuse situations and many of the very valid concerns you raised. We plan to find out in more detail whether the measures they have put in place are working. Are women feeling safer or less safe if women request their partners to stay
  • if we discover through this research that these policies are making things worse not better for women we will report those findings and of course will not pursue our campaign. We can then use this research to inform trusts considering implementing this policy. Thanks to you we aren't presuming we will launch the campaign but will wait to see what the research says
  • if we can discover things that enable women to keep their partners with them while not imposing on others in the many ways you suggest then these will form part
  • if we do go ahead we will be very careful in how we communicate about the campaign. We can see now how easily our desire to improve things for women is seen in the wrong light

To that end we want to assure you that:

  • we are not doing this to help the government further cut corners. Like you we want them to invest more in postnatal care and continue to do all we can to promote that. If we go ahead with this campaign we will always have this aim running alongside it. We do think though that this initiative may have the potential to offer women support from their loved ones in addition to better postnatal services
  • this is not a campaign about men. By partners we mean fathers, same sex partners, mothers, sisters, doulas, friends. A supportive loved-one who the woman chooses as her postnatal support
  • midwives and other HCPs workload is very much part of the research. We need to know that this will help them deliver better postnatal care not hinder. Initial research supports this but we need more
  • always planned, and now thanks to you of utmost import, will be safeguarding issues, looking at how to create private spaces and addressing potential concerns about domestic abuse

I hope you'll see that we are very responsive to your concerns. We don't think we should abandon this entirely partly because if it is a really dreadful idea we need the research to back this up so that Trusts don't continue to implement this and partly because we have has such a call to action from women on this issue outside of this thread.

We know some of you are feeling angry with us for suggesting the idea. We can only say that our intentions are 100% to respond to women's needs and make positive changes particularly for the most vulnerable women on whom we often focus our time and energy.

Thanks for your honesty and help-we may have got this a bit wrong but we are genuinely trying to make things better not worse."

MNHQ

RowanMumsnet · 11/07/2014 12:36

No, we don't charge charities for this kind of canvassing thread when we're asking whether we should support a campaign - agree that this one has provided some extremely thorough feedback but not many of the other threads attract anything like the same response!

Birthrights' post does say that they're NOT necessarily going to press ahead with this: as they say, 'If they are not working for women we really need to know... if we discover through this research that these policies are making things worse not better for women we will report those findings and of course will not pursue our campaign. We can then use this research to inform trusts considering implementing this policy... We don't think we should abandon this entirely partly because if it is a really dreadful idea we need the research to back this up so that Trusts don't continue to implement this and partly because we have has such a call to action from women on this issue outside of this thread.'

Just thought that was worth reiterating!

MNHQ

RowanMumsnet · 11/07/2014 13:00

@sarine1

Rowan, The trouble is this is something that Birthright ARE actively currently campaigning and promoting (and using a crap piece of research as evidence). If it was 'on the drawing board' then I'd be less worried but it's not. They have speakers at their conferences, they have the research on their website, it reads as if they are actively consulting (and advising?) trusts about this. And it's being rolled out...... Sad

Thanks Sarine. To be fair this thread is about 24 hours old and that's not really enough time, realistically, for Birthrights to reformulate a policy and change related comms. We see no reason not to take in good faith their assurance that they will look at this carefully and change tack if need be, though.

On another tip (not related to you Sarine) - we'd be really grateful if posters could hold off implying that the Birthrights board and staff are personally dishonest. We think that's a bit out of order to be frank.

MNHQ

RowanMumsnet · 11/07/2014 13:18

@Zara8

Rowan - if it was my post you were referring to re board/staff, I certainly didn't mean to imply that they were dishonest. Sorry!! I can see how it could have read that way though.

What I mean is that (from my experience working in a policy-based human rights NGO), where there is a decision made at the top to continue with a campaign, despite numerous shortcomings having been identified, a gilded picture is often painted to policy-makers and legislators about the campaign. It's not being dishonest, it's just the staff doing their best with what they've been instructed to do by the boss .

Obviously 24 hours is too short a time frame for them to scrap/completely change their campaign.

But it is a worry that their public documents, website and events planned make it seem like it's a campaign that's almost certainly going ahead, rather than a tentative exploration. As other posters have noted, some larger-scale independent research needs to be carried out by Birthrights. It doesn't inspire confidence (among the general public and funders) that this wasn't done at the outset.

Thanks Zara. Can only reiterate (and realise that I'm sounding like their press officer here!) that they have very clearly said they are NOT necessarily going to go ahead. In a way (as you'll know if you work in a campaigning organisation) making a statement like that even after you've plainly done a lot of campaigns groundwork and published related material on your site is rather unusual and brave.

MNHQ

RowanMumsnet · 11/07/2014 16:05

Another follow-up response from Birthrights:

"A couple more things to clarify. There's no big boss pushing us around here, no team of staff or big research grant. Birthrights is run by a board of trustees (unpaid, all mothers) and you've got the chair of the board directly responding here. We don't have staff, just a couple of volunteers who do odd jobs but mainly it's a couple of women who run this without pay.

There's no funding from any organisation that is driving any kind of agenda forwards.

We are lucky to have lots of in kind support and some individual donations which along with donating ourselves keeps our projects afloat.

One of the benefits of being so small is that we are nimble and can genuinely do an about face on this if required. There isn't anything about a possible campaign on our website; nothing apart from a couple of sides of outline exists at all, and this thread is the first public mention of it.

What is there is information on last year's Dignity in Childbirth Forum and campaign. The research referenced was presented by an external person - it's not Birthrights' work. We called for submissions for projects that supported the idea of dignity in childbirth and this external project was one of many. Others included specialist services for deaf women, young mothers and sexually abused women.

I think it would be irresponsible to abandon a project overnight solely on the basis of response to this thread. We haven't come up with this idea on a whim and we need to think carefully before abandoning it. We are committed to researching, and think this is worth doing; if you are all right we can hopefully make the issues with this more broadly known. Who knows, we may end up needing to launch a campaign against partners staying overnight if that's what research work shows.

We're really not a big, sinister organisation trying to upset women, and we fully take on board that you think we've got this wrong. And thanks for the offers of help and other ideas - lots of food for thought here.'

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