What do you think about spouses/partners staying overnight on postnatal wards?

[RowanMumsnet]

Hello

The organisation Birthrights (with whom we've done some stuff in the past) are planning a new campaign called First Night, and wanted to know whether it's something MN could support - so we said we'd ask you lot!

Here's Birthrights' description of the campaign:

'Birthrights is a human rights in childbirth charity, and we will be launching a campaign later this year to ensure women aren't left alone on often over-staffed postnatal wards, but instead can choose to have their partner remain with them overnight. We will be researching what's important to women, partners and staff, the barriers and benefits, and working with units who've implemented this policy to draw up best practice guidelines to use as they lobby for change.'

So please let us know what you think. Is this something you'd like us to swing behind?

Thanks
MNHQ

Having reread the thread and many other posts I take back my self-centred view. This wouldn't be workable, I realise now. It's soft and fluffy and emotive to suggest this campaign to individual women but the bigger picture means it's not practical. More midwives on postnatal wards instead please.

However what angers me most about this debate though is the argument is the prevailing notion that men = bad

I think many of us are saying that more people = bad.

No, no, no.

I would have felt very, very uncomfortable about having to stay overnight in a post-natal ward full of new fathers.

Some reasons -

Few private rooms on post-natal wards. I think the ward at my hospital had only 2 or 3 private rooms. Having to be in a 4 or 6 bed ward overnight with potentially up to 5 strange men would make me feel very uncomfortable and insecure. Like it or not, not all men are nice, kind, decent people who would be thinking of nothing but their partner and new baby, and the NHS is hardly going to be in a position to carry out CRB checks on overnight visitors. For example, one of the mums I met when in with DS2 had taken out a restraining order against her ex-DP (baby's father) because of his abusive behaviour. Having a situation where a DP like that feels he has a right to stay overnight in the hospital isn't a good thing.

And trying to get to grips with breastfeeding an unco-operative baby was hard enough without having lots of extra people crowding into the ward.

No private toilets on the post-natal ward I was on. So even if a man had been staying in a private room with partner, he'd still have to come out to use the toilets. Potential embarrassment and loss of dignity to say the least for any new mums dripping lochia.

Not much spare space on the wards. And the extra people could mean a lot of extra noise.

GilbertBlytheWouldGetIt Thu 10-Jul-14 15:23:36
Yes I did read your post.

So you either ignore, or judge me to be a selfish prick, rather than acknowledge there may be a bit more to it, based on medical need here.

Cheers.

it is inevitable that they will be able to listen into other women's deeply personal medical examinations/discussions with the doctors.

Yes, I would like an answer form Birth rights regarding this too. I don't want to discuss moving my bowels or my stitches with in ear shot of a strange man.

Each patient's circumstances are different, and that should be taken into full consideration.

HCPs are already trained to try and spot women in difficult or troubled situations and to act accordingly (sometimes by refusing them admission to the ward under existing visiting rules).

You cannot vet partners coming in to stay overnight, so you absolutely cannot take each patient's circumstances into account. It's a slippery slope- would you like to be the midwife telling partner A that he can't stay and partner B that he can't? What are you basing these assumptions on?

I also really dislike the second argument- that if something happens someone will step in to stop it. Minimise the risks and put the new mother first.

However what angers me most about this debate though is the argument is the prevailing notion that men = bad

That's not what I read at all. It's not about men being bad. It's about 12 people and 6 babies being shoe-horned into tiny ward with barely enough room for anyone to move.

I wish you all the best with your birth and I sincerely hope that you get the support and the experience that you want, redtoothbrush, as I have seen you on threads like this before.

However I do think that allowing a +1 (of any gender) onto the wards is a very slippery slope that will actually be damaging for more woman than it is helpful for.

However what angers me most about this debate though is the argument is the prevailing notion that men = bad

Not saying at all that men are "bad" but I don't want to be semi clothed in front of men, walking about in an open gown in front of men, changing bloody dressings in front of men. There's little privacy as it is on post-natal wards and it's just about bearable when it's mainly women in a similar position around, or medical staff.

In many other countries, private rooms are the norm rather than the exception. This is a system that seems to work elsewhere. I think we are very backward in our thinking in saying that ward style accommodation is here permanently.

Yes and the systems that surround funding are totally different too. I had one baby in America and 2 in the UK.

I had a beautiful room in America overlooking the sea. Ask me what that costs.

ReallyFuckingFedUp Thu 10-Jul-14 15:27:26
Yes, I would like an answer form Birth rights regarding this too. I don't want to discuss moving my bowels or my stitches with in ear shot of a strange man.

I would feel uncomfortable with that type of conversation being in ear shot or any man OR woman.

But thats beside the point here isn't it. Because we are supposed to put up and shut up with ward systems and lack of private rooms, regardless of the debate about men that this thread is about...

But Redtoothbrush - yours would seem to be a classic case where your medical needs necessitate you have a private room and your DH's presence - and that's exactly what's been arranged for you. Which is fantastic, and I'm genuinely really pleased for you. The system is working as it should in this case.

Can you see that it's not workable for everyone? For it to become a right for all new fathers?

I don't particularly want to have a midwife's hand in my vagina with only a flimsy curtain to protect my dignity from the prying eyes of 7 other women and their assorted partners either.

Not to mention that post-natal wards are hotter than the sun, generally. Adding double the amount of bodies to that would not be nice.

I had a beautiful room in America overlooking the sea. Ask me what that costs

To me it is two separate debates, though, red. 1 - how can we make the current ward set-ups work, and 2 - in future hospital planning, what would we like to see.

However what angers me most about this debate though is the argument is the prevailing notion that men = bad

Not all men are bad. But a significant enough amount of men are bad. And when you have 6 men in a room one might be bad. And bad men tend to prey on vulnerable people. We can't pretend that isn't the case that some women will have to have rapists on their ward/ or men who commit domestic violence. Or men who are just fucking annoying and don't care that the women around them want quiet and privacy.

GilbertBlytheWouldGetIt Thu 10-Jul-14 15:23:36
Yes I did read your post.

"So you either ignore, or judge me to be a selfish prick, rather than acknowledge there may be a bit more to it, based on medical need here.

Cheers."

Not at all, I agree that on a case by case basis some patients should be allowed to have a partner remain with them. I believe that is already the case where private rooms are available and these are usually allocated in respect of necessity. That's the case in the hospital I worked and gave birth at.

I don't agree that it would be negligible in cost to have all wards converted into private rooms, and I don't agree that the needs of the few should take priority over the needs of the majority.

Absolutely not. A dreadful idea.

Not in favour of this at all

too many issues in catering to the needs of the chaps involved - eg noise, space, privacy for women on shared wards - what about bathrooms etc (I really dont want someone elses Dh waiting outside while I pad about with a hospital gown and lochia)

Now, if the organisation wants to campaign for something that would benefit more women how about minimum staffing levels on postnatal wards? or specific maternity trained HCAs who could be attatched to patients needing a higher level of care eg with post CS mobility issues to assist them overnight with baby care? Or an old style nursery facility that mothers could ask for assistance for a few hours to get some rest safe in the knowlege her baby will be watched, changed and brought to her for a feed if it wakes?

Private room, definitely yes.

Ward, probably not for the reasons outlined.

CinnabarRed Thu 10-Jul-14 15:31:21
Can you see that it's not workable for everyone? For it to become a right for all new fathers?

Reread what I've said.

And when you have 6 men in a room one might be bad.
And I've stated repeatedly about private rooms....

Hey ho.

I think I'm just left with the feeling that there is a very negative attitude towards change in general, with the only acceptable idea on the table being staff. Whilst I accept that is a very key part of it, I find the number of people just saying 'well we can't have more private rooms' just depressing as it has implications for our children and indeed grandchildren. We are our own worst enemies in that respect. Whilst we continue to set our sights low, we'll get even less.

It depends what you see as priorities for NHS expenditure, though.

This is going to be a gross oversimplification, but there are many, many, many things I would rather extra money in the NHS was spent on than building more private rooms.

As an organisation it is already financially stretched. But even looking at longer term fixes, within the context of a state healthcare system that is still predominantly funded by taxes, I would rather more lives were saved than women got a private room for a night after birth.

Even within labour and childbirth there are many things I personally would rather see the money spent on - more midwives, more breastfeeding support, more health visitors, more anesthetists, more home births...

That's a tough one, isn't it? When I was physically and emotionally devastated after DD1's difficult birth in the middle of the night I'd have given anything for DH to have been allowed to stay with me and not be thrown out (poor guy just went to sleep in the car anyway as he was too exhausted to drive home). But I wouldn't want other people's husbands there, and can completely understand why a lot of women would feel uncomfortable with the wards full of strange men when they are at their most vulnerable.

It's a shame there aren't enough resources to allow mum, dad and baby a room of their own that first night, especially if the baby is born at night. Optional private rooms may indeed be the answer.

I would also agree that if there is going to be a campaign for anything regarding arrangements in maternity wards, addressing the shocking staff shortages and lack of care so many women receive is probably a little more of a priority than having sleepovers.

Where are we getting these private rooms from? Who will find them? Who will create new wards to cater for extra patients because of the lost space creating more private rooms?

Perhaps there should be more resources put into home birth, like it's done in Holland. Then not only does your DH get to stay, but you also have absolutely no-one else around and you get to sleep in your own bed! As a super-extra-bonus, homebirths cost the NHS far less then hospital births.