What do you think about spouses/partners staying overnight on postnatal wards?

[RowanMumsnet]

Hello

The organisation Birthrights (with whom we've done some stuff in the past) are planning a new campaign called First Night, and wanted to know whether it's something MN could support - so we said we'd ask you lot!

Here's Birthrights' description of the campaign:

'Birthrights is a human rights in childbirth charity, and we will be launching a campaign later this year to ensure women aren't left alone on often over-staffed postnatal wards, but instead can choose to have their partner remain with them overnight. We will be researching what's important to women, partners and staff, the barriers and benefits, and working with units who've implemented this policy to draw up best practice guidelines to use as they lobby for change.'

So please let us know what you think. Is this something you'd like us to swing behind?

Thanks
MNHQ

No, No and a thousand times NO.

I don't think everyone who contemplated yes was just being selfish

No, of course they weren't.

But the issues of funding articulated so well by Thurlow at 15:43:23 can't be dismissed as irrelevant.

Hospitals seem to really vary on co-sleeping. The hospital where I had ds1 and ds2 tucked me up with them - they had a nice way of doing it that was all secure and scrummy. When I had ds3 I asked a midwife to do the same, and she looked at me horrified then lectured me about how dangerous it was.

I live in a country where you take someone of the same sex into hospital with you to look after you, except if you are in a private hospital and you can take whoever you like because you have your own room and en-suite.

My DIL had her first baby last week and I was exhausted having seen her through a gruelling 24 hour labour, so when the time came to settle down, once she came back from theatre - I felt so ill I had to go home. My son stayed with her and his boy instead. They loved it so much that next time we welcome a new baby into the family I might not do the rooming in like Ive done for all the rest. Last week showed us a new possibility. If the dad wants to stay we can say to hell with tradition, have a lovely time of it.

My only reservation about the whole 'carer/companion' system in any hospital is that its one way for the hospital to skimp on nursing care. They don't have to have people available to help with bathing etc because the patient has someone with them to do it.

I also wonder whether the time of the baby's birth has some bearing on this. I wouldn't be happy with this overnight stay proposal, but then DS was born around 6am, so his dad came with us to the ward, went home to phone family, had a few hours' sleep and was back for the afternoon visit so didn't miss out on huge amounts of DS' first hours. Had he been born at 11pm, that might have been different.

Hell no!

I would feel very uncomfortable about having to complain to staff such that a zero tolerance policy could be enforced if needed. Whenever I have stayed in hospital (including post 2 births) I have been a tiny bit relieved when visiting hour are over - putting up with random strangers is bad enough but their relatives too is hard work. The last thing this needs is extending over night. Visiting hours for fathers at least on most post-natal wards are extremely extensive - certainly both hospitals I gave birth in were 8 am to 8pm with reasonable accommodation made if you actually gave birth out of those hours. Frankly I was ready for a bit of alone time with my baby by the time visiting hours were over.

And separate areas on wards for those who want privacy would not be enough. It would have to be entirely separate wards for those who want privacy or private (paid for if necessary) rooms for those who want their partners to stay.

Granny - what happens to people who don't have someone appropriate to come into hospital with them. Not sure I'd want any of my family members helping me bath / go to the toilet tbh.

Thanks again. We'll let the thread run on for a bit but just to clarify: we started this thread to see what MNers think, because that's what we do before we sign up to external campaigns. And obviously in this case the weight of opinion (unless something dramatic changes) is very much a 'no'. Thanks for all your thoughts, as always

And yy to those above who've mentioned how it would affect women from other cultures.

I have a Muslim friend who will not (under any circumstances) show her face/hair to men outside her family. She would literally have to sleep in a burqa. That's hardly conducive to a good night's sleep (!)

Granny do you go to all your grandchildren's births and "room in"?

senses an almighty AIBU from a DIL in not to distant future

You are living in Cloud Cuckoo Land if you think there will be money in the kitty for private rooms and all the other measures required to make this proposal a safe one.

Where is the money for the extra bathrooms that will be needed? Where is the space? Where will you put the beds of those partners accompanying women NOT in private rooms? Are you going to sort out the funding needed to build bigger maternity units with floor space adequate enough to house camp beds and storage space for partners effects? What about the cost of risk assessing? The costs of developing policies, trialling them and financing effective evaluation thereof?

Or shall we PFI these out too? Where is your evidence for the initiatives you cite in support of your interest in this campaign?

Where is the money to feed all these overnight 'guests' because I can assure you that before long, they'll stop bringing in their own food and expect a nurse or MW to provide them with a breakfast tray and cup of tea! Even if extra overnight guests are made subject to a surcharge for bed and board, this will encourage possibly yet more private service engagement with the NHS.

Mumsnet- how many of your staff have ever worked as HCPs'? My BPis rising at the thought of having to police such policies. I feel dreadfully sorry for my friends working in OB/GYN who now have the possibility of this to contend with too.

Stick to encouraging units to decision make on an individual basis please- plenty do allow high risk patients or those with extra needs to have enhanced family presence.

I am so fucking furious that you appear to have made up your minds already. Please leave this be and stop piling on yet more pressure onto my VERY over worked colleagues.

Thanks MNHQ

However what angers me most about this debate though is the argument is the prevailing notion that men = bad

While I'm more uncomfortable when half -dressed round strange men - I'm really not that OK with strange women either. Female DP, sister or GM stopping overnight would also be something I wouldn't want.

I spent one night on post natal ward - apparently it was an exceptionally quiet night in that there was only 6 of us but instead of using the private rooms which were there or putting us across several bays - we were all jammed in one bay.

Night staff were still very abrupt - they still couldn’t spare a member of staff to take c-section mum who had twins and had one in SUCBA and one with her down to see other twin - and she loudly cried all night long - I can't say I blame her. Her DP raised hell the next day but by time we left midday next day - they still hadn't been taken down.

The noise from the other mother visitors next day was annoying to both DH and I – phones being used – TVs full volume blaring – loud conversations and visitors being noisy about other patients. We were just waiting for them to get their acts together to leave.

I was desperately in need of sleep and bf advice I got neither – I’d have gone home by they insisted I stop one night. Staying one night made everything harder for us not easier.

My experience was a big reason we fought for HB with next two DC and DH and rest of my DC could be around afterwards.

What utter bollocks. They don't even want to listen.

They can't find the money for adequate staffing but they'll be fine to build private rooms!

NO.

The nursing staff should be providing the support and reassurance to new mothers. I'm sure the wards that allow partners love it because they can cut staffing levels even more

'areas of the wards where women who don't want their partners present can remain private.'

And when those are full? And would that be somewhere you'd have to leave to get to the bathroom? And why would you put the needs of the majority ahead of the needs of the few? I would hate other people's partners around and not having my lovely DH around is a price worth paying to avoid having some arsehole next to me.

NHS North Bristol:

Published on 5 Jul 2013

Mums-to-be who are having a straightforward pregnancy and would like a natural birth, may be able to choose the homely environment of Cossham free-standing birth centre rather than a traditional hospital setting.
Facilities at Cossham Birth Centre have been designed to provide comfort and support in labour and include:
4 en-suite birth rooms furnished with floor mats, cushions and birth balls to support you
A water pool in each birth room, should you wish to relax and/or give birth in water
Entonox (gas and air), TENS (transcutaneous electrical nerve stimulation), aromatherapy and Pethidine to help with labour
A double bed in each room so your partner may stay with you and your baby after the birth
Use of a communal kitchen and dining area where light snacks will be available
More information visit: www.nbt.nhs.uk/cosshambirthcentre

These are the facilities that all women should have access to, I'm surprised the argument on this thread has revolved around an acceptance of 6 bedded bays and the consequent need to exclude partners overnight. The real argument is that 6 bedded bays are totally unacceptable and should be banned. In the main part of the new Southmead hospital all patients are housed in single rooms, this should be the norm. If men had babies it would be the norm, they would not put up with the lack of dignity and privacy that enforced sharing brings.

I personally would have loved DH to be able to stay over and help, I was recovering from CS and found the act of picking baby out of bassinet to feed agonising. it meant I was desperate to go home and cried when midwives told me I wasn't well enough.

However i can totally appreciate the reasons given above for men to stay away are more important than my few days of discomfort in hospital.

I think this organisation would be better off campaigning for better midwifery staffing levels.

We had a thread on this subject last year which ran into 100s of posts, 99% of which were against the idea.

As a midwife I don't think it would be good for many of the reasons already stated. Vulnerable feeling women, noise levels, disturbance, lack of physical space in crowded bays, fire risk.

I work on a 40 bedded ward. If everyone had a partner to stay that would be 80 bodies in a space designed for 40. There is literally a 2ft space between beds. So blokes would have to squeeze in that space and then they'd be what, 2 inches away from the woman in the next bed? Cosy!

And what about the toilet facilities. Women would be having to queue for the loo as twice as many people would mean there aren't enough.

Plenty of blokes I see at work aren't very nice. They turn up drunk, on drugs, tagged, abusive. I'm not going to be able to tell someone like that he couldn't stay when others can. Believe me I won't risk it. It'll be easier to let him stay and stumble about the place being a pita. I rang security once for a bloke who was threatening me on the ward and the one old security bloke on shift was busy and couldn't come.

These sort of blokes take up staff time rather than helping their partners. So we'd have less time to help women as we'd be getting accosted with demands for cups of tea, etc.

YY higgle.

Thanks MNHQ.

You see that sounds like my idea of hell Higgle. I want access to a consultant anaesthetist, an excellent neonatal care department and an operating theatre. Aromatherapy you can keep.

Those rooms are for women who have had a straight forward birth and don't therefore cater for women who may be most in need of support afterwards- complicated births and birth trauma.

The physical space in hospitals will not allow for those conditions for EVERY woman and redeveloping existing wards takes time.

Where are the toilets, shower and bath rooms going? The extra security costs? The extra parking spaces needed for all those people parked longer? The extra food and drink facilities?

I think this organisation would be better off campaigning for better midwifery staffing levels.

Yes surely this is the obvious thing for a birth charity to campaign about? Do they have a campaign about this?

Havan

- I totally agree. Women in other countries get carted to the nearest field clinic in wheelbarrows and we regard aromatherapy as somehow important?

These are the facilities that all women should have access to, I'm surprised the argument on this thread has revolved around an acceptance of 6 bedded bays and the consequent need to exclude partners overnight.

Sadly it is what there.

At the minute there is a near constant fight to keep the local maternity ward at all - rather than send everyone to a nearby - 30 min- city maternity hospital with really low ratings because they have too few staff and too many mothers already.

The public transport to this hospital is bloody poor - so really you'd have to drive – which we for one don’t.

Yet it is constantly proposed fairly regularly as a viable option - mainly as it would save money apparently though viability report do show the problems with it - and is constantly campaign against it.

Against that single rooms while ideal are less of priority.

Charley

That is a whole other argument and unrelated to having partners staying over and another source of infection.

I know plenty of infection control specialists who'd ban visitors entirely if they ruled the NHS world .