circumcision

[stiggles]

I am due in Sept. If it is a boy, me dh wants him circumcised as he is. Through my own nievaity (spelling?) I wasn't too sure if dh had been done or not, so never questioned it up till now when he mentioned it. I obviously didn't pay attention in my biology lessons. DH is Nigerian and he says it is Nigerian tradition for all boys to be circumcised.

I am concerned regarding this for the well being of my son - are there side effects. DH says it is cleaner too to be done. I really don't know what to do. I suppose I married into the nigerian tradition I must accept this happpens (though we had very english wedding!).

where do I get this done etc? I'm not going to bring up to topic again with dh again until we may have to if we have a son

Any advice gratefully appreciated

I think you should discuss it now to be honest Stiggles. I know it's a difficult one, but DH needs to be aware that you have concerns that you are not going to ignore. You may have a son in future even if this baby turns out to be a daughter.

Try to agree to discuss it calmly. Ask him to explain why it is so important to him to follow Nigerian traditionin this respect (when he didn't in others, eg the wedding) and some facts behind this tradition. Then explain to him that you are unhappy because, equally, as far as your beliefs go, it is an uneccessary surgical prodedure and that in this country, it is not considered any more clean or unclean to have a foreskin, as long as good hygiene is observed. And that generally circumcision is only performed for medical reasons (foreskin too tight/repeated infection.)

My son had it done at 3 for medical reasons and although it was fine within a few weeks, it did casue him some discomfort and was quite a lot of hassle during the healing process.

Perhaps you can reach a compromise; are there other aspects of the nigerian tradition that you are happy to acknowledge and follow? You could tell DH that you are fine with this.. and that.. but NOT with your son (if it is a son) being circumcised.

DS hasn't had it done, and he's never had any probs with cleanliness so far. DH is clean too! There has been research that suggests that circumcision may reduce HIV, but not as much as wearing a condom, and otherwise, in terms of day to day cleanliness, is just a case of learning when older and the foreskin is retractable, to clean under the foreskin. Retention of the foreskin does have benefits apparently. It protects the sensitive glans below, can prevent friction soreness during sex (for women)

There are heaps of websites (mostly US) where men are trying to debunk the myths relating to the benefits of circumcision, in an attempt to pvercome the cultural prejudice in favour of routine infant circumcision. It is just not something I could have done to my baby ds, but obviously you will need to discuss it with your dh and work out whether it's something you could contemplate having done. You will most likely have to find a private doctor willing to do the op.

A google search might give you details of people willing to do it.

IMO since there isn't a religious requirement in this case, it's a situation of your cultural expectations vs your dh's. Why should his take precedence? Is he suggesting that your father/your brother/nephews etc are unclean? And why should boys have to look like their fathers in this respect?

Here's a webpage about foreskins and circumcision. It is anti really. I know that there are sites that are there to debunk the debunkers too!

www.helium.com/tm/647519/simple-matter-requires-little

Must add that I would, if there were medical reasons, have ds circumcised. My nephew recently had hypospadias repair which included circumcision and I know DH had some issues as a teen with his being too tight (though that rectified itself) so I will be keeping an eye on ds.

The HVs are usually quite helpful if you tell them you want it done (ignore any sharp intakes of breath, its none of their business!)If your hubby is part of the nigerian expat network they will know people that can do this. There's so many argumenst on both sides that you just have to decide who wants it/or not most, you or dh. If the dad didn't find it a big deal and want their son to be like them, there's plenty of americans/jews and muslims who are testiment to being happy with it!

psss..check out the archives, there's plenty of wives on this site who'll swear by it too!!

thanks for the advice. It is a really difficult topic and one I want to ignore but realise that I can't! DH has already proposed his argument saying that it is normal for boys to have it done and then proceeded to list all of his friends (english) who've been done, which I'm sure they won't thank him for! But I can see this being a huge make or break situation for us! I didn't go down the tradiiton Nigerian wedding as we got married over hear but we were meant to have one back in Nigeria after our wedding but we couldn't afford to go and then his brother sadly died and somehow it felt irrelevant!

But I will bring the topic up again and do lots of research but whether or not it is Nigerian culture, to be honest it's his word against mine!! I think it is unnecessary and to let a poor baby be in pain for no medical reason is unfair and cruel IMO.

we shall see how I get on. It won't be tonight as I'm exhausted!

btw stiggles the skin is numbed with a cream and I'm sure it hurts but only briefly, and is undoubtedly forgotten. You should go and see one done, is there anyone in his family that is having one?? You'll find the women hide in the bedroom though, its a male tradition and they get on with it.

There's no logic to it, you're right it seems cruel, but at least show dh you have researched it before telling him no, to avoid arguments when your lovely dc is born and you want to be happy!

There are very real risks to male circumsion.

I don't believe in the mutilation of anyone's genitals, let alone a defenceless infacts, which is what circumsition is, traditional mutilation that is. Female circumsition is justified by tradition too. None of it is acceptable in mu opinion.

Byt that is my opinion. Just adding to the melting pot.

Why can't your partner wait and let his son make up his own mind when he is an adult?

Google "circumcision accident"

oh here we go.. before it takes off monkey pleeese do not equate circumcision with female circumcision (actually its officially called female mutilation). by including them in the same sentance you are showing a profound ignorance of the facts.

Female circumcision is the removal of the clitoris to prevent women straying. the connotations are vile and sexist. Traditional circumcision is for hygene reasons, which have been proven to be true regarding aids.

I'm not saying circumcision is right, just get it in perpective! Or can I equate it to getting a baby's ears pierced???? Is that mutilation to or just tradition???

what a surprise finding you against it monkeytrousers. Getting ready to start your vile racist thoughts are you? Imo you are no better than ucm but just use fancy words to be a racist. What the hell do you think you are doing linking a site that will just scare the poor woman. My ds has had the op because he is a muslim ( cue monkeytrousers to start on her islam speech again) and he was fine. It healed in two weeks. Never caused him pain and he is fine. She is not going to hut to get it done ffs. We had ds done at ulch so he was in the best hands. Is you dh a muslim btw stiggles? If there was a real risk the doctor would tell you.

the Nigerian family i know travelled to manchester to use a traditional Jewish mohel for their grandson's cicumcision. i agree with mehidsmummy and microwaveonly about perpsective and not equiating male circumcision with female genital mutilation

It is very important that you discuss this openly with your dh, stiggles. You will be the person doing the aftercare, and you have to be prepared for that.

Very importantly, you need to know at what age your dh wants the procedure done, and whether he has any preconceptions about how it is done? The earlier it is doen the faster and more easily the baby heals. Jewish boys are circumcised at 8 days, if they are healthy, and are generally completely healed within 10 days or less. If a local anaesthetic is used - the cream, not the injection - then they feel no pain at such an early age.

Also, make sure you insist that a medically qualified 'circumciser' does the job. Someone who performs circumcisions day-in day-out, and is completely expert in them.

dh is not a muslim - so this is more to with the traditions of the Yoruba tribe rather than religious as dh is (rather lapsed) Christian. I'm just going to get my case together then talk to dh calmly. TBH this is my fault for not realising that DH had been done!! He had to say something - oh dear I really am nieve (sorry can't spell this word)!!!

prettycandles is right. I also was shocked when dh first mentioned it and was really anti it. But then i found out the info and luckily the nhs did it when they lowed ds right testes. Look around for a good doctor. Also do it when ds quite young(before two) if it was that risky an op surely you would hear more about it? Millions and millions and millions of muslim and jewish boys have this op every year.you can google anything and get a horror story

and millions of americans..most people don't realise that it is tradition in america for christians to have it..in fact I wonder what % of the world does see it as ok, quite high I guess.

I don't equate infant male circumcision with female genital mutilation, I suppose because as far as I am aware there is never a medical argument for FGM, unlike male circ.

However, I do disagree very very strongly to infant male circumcision where there is no medical reason. The way I see it, the foreskin is there for a reason. The cleanliness argument just doesn't wash with me (ho ho). Because you could argue that your labia could get build up of smegma if not cleaned, but no one agrees with them being removed? WRT HIV, the most effective means of preventing transmission is condom use. Surely no one would have their infant son circumcised with a view to preventing HIV, since it would be infinitely preferable to recommend that they instead use condoms when they are sexually active.

I am very uncomfortable with the idea that me saying this would be considered racist.

In the case of the OP's DH, she herself has suggested that she is not talking about religious circumcision, but cultural/tradition circumcision and the idea that one's son should 'look' like the father. We don't feel that way about minor aspects of physical appearance, like hair colour, eye colour and so on. So why does this validate the removal of a foreskin? Maybe the OP would like the baby, if it is a boy, to 'look like' her father or to just be as he is, foreskin and all.

Anyway. As I said (as did GillainMcpoo and Pretttycandles) this is something that is worth discussing before the baby is born. Tricky one to agree about I reckon.

bet you any moneytrousers is leading the nos!

pooka, I guess people disagree because its a piece of skin that happens to be part of genitalia. Would it upset you if it was elsewhere in the body?

You're right the hygene reason doesn't matter now, as it did in biblical times...but I bet most people would be happy to give their child an operation to say..pin back their ears, but that is aesthetic reasons only, and a big op, General Anaestheitc and everything. But thats just as cultural as removal of foreskin is to others.

Its just a tiny piece of skin, there's a hell of a lot worse stuff going on out there in the name of tradition and aesthetics!

Well I wouldn't permit it to be done to my DS unless there were definite medical reasons for it. And I don't approve of piercing babies' ears either. But then I don't think anyone's superstitious or traditonal beliefs give them the right to do painful unecessary things to anyone else, particularly someone who is in no position to consent to it being done.

It is a relatively simple procedure. Ask your midwife and they will let you know if your local health service does this.

what happens

the baby is taken from the parents into a day operating theatre where some numbing cream is applied to the surrounding area then a local anesthetic is injected into the base of the penis. Obviously at this point the baby will cry. Then there is a small cut made to the foreskin and a small plastic ring is placed under the foreskin. The foreskin is then pulled back up over the ring and a thread tied round it.

After this your baby is fine to leave the day hospital with instructions on how to keep it clean etc. Sometime between 7 - 10 days after the ring will fall off taking the dead foreskin with it. If it has not fallen off when you go back for the follow up check the nurses will remove it for you.

We were not allowed to go through with the procedure until we had watched a DVD of what happened and had discussed this with the consultant who carried out the procedure.

My DS was circumscised at our local day surgery unit he was perfectly happy within 30 mins of the procedure.

I do not wish to enter into slanging match this is purely for the op's information

That's completely ridiculous to say someone is racist because they disagree with circumcision.
I also disagree strongly with circumcision but I don't have a racist bone in my body. Bloody ridiculous if someone says I do.

Oh I agree that plenty of terrible/worse things go on in the name of culture. Too right.
But I do think I'd feel the same about other parts of the body. Not just because the foreskin is part of the genitalia. I can't think of similar things really. The labia are obviously flaps of skin that serve a purpose in the same way as the foreskin. But I am very keen not to draw a direct comparison IYSWIM. Would fingernails be a similar thing? I bite mine into oblivion and yet feel no lack for not having them. They can be removed if properly anesthetised with minimal discomfort.
Oh I don't know. I suppose this is one issue where there is a massive gulf between the yes and no camps. No middle ground really. And that is why I feel for the OP because I can imagine it being a really difficult decision to make where each party is confident that they are right.

so what about religious reasons then? Do you honestly think i would do it if i thought it would hurt ds? He was having an operation (undescended testes) so he had it done at the same time.

i am not being ridiculous hercules. I have been on other threads where monkeytrousers has been nothing but racist. She belive me was just warming up to slate islam btw. Its up to the ds mummy no one else.

If say your ds had not been having the operation on his testes, would you still have had it done? Sorry - goign out will look later