Oops! Just started an accidental neighbour dispute

[tinytoessize4]

Any legal eagles reading? Advice please...

We have a shared passageway only with next door, enclosed at either end, and locked at our end (we did not put the lock on and have evidence to prove this). We thought we owned it outright, but this is not the case as it is a restrictive covenant in the deeds. Anyway, we propsed to move our kitchen downstairs into the passageway area, knockig down our internal wall to create an open room. Yes, we know the planning permission necessary and checked this out. Out of courtesy we informed our neighbour of our pending planning permission application. We have a small son and one bedroom. We only have 2k to do the alterations. I'll continue...we informed her of this, and that she had never utilised the right of access since we had been there and never since the previous owner of our house had been there either. She got a wee bit shirty. Saying that we admitted blocking our passage by placing a lock on the door (!) to which she didn't have a key (why? because she never bothered to get one when whoever put the lock on did it.) and that this was actionable nuisance. grr. she said she wanted monetary compensation for this. We said we didn't have any money. But we do have a shared right of access across the back of her property. We offered to exchange this. She hasn't yet responded. We said it would be best if we met face to face (terrible but we haven't met her and we've been here 2yrs! We were talking by letter). She's a litigation lawyer and though I am a law student, still have a year left. She quoted James v Stevenson [1893] AC 291 at me but I couldn't find it on Westlaw. Where do we stand with regard to the fact the right of access hasn't been exercised by her for about 10yrs? is there any precedent of lapsed right of access? Sorry its long ladies & gents....

right. this has spiralled into an attack rather than any, any helpful related advice.

mutt - i do like your objectivity and grasp of niceities of the english language. i'll come back and keep you updated on the progress.

soupdragon - only if the pp fails. the only correspondence i have lost my cool with has been on here.

how do you delete a thread?

lulu - it was a little upsetting but i feel worse for the person attacked. we'll have to wait and see what happens with the statement and any others they get.

by the way, as re the close minded thing - im quite happy to live and let live. which many on here aren't. many of the opinions expressed have been either proveably wrong, misinformed because they haven't read the thread properly or argumentative for the sake of it. but i suppose you are representative of the general population.

I'll be scanning the local planning applications with great interest after this. "Application by A. Sociopath to change character of Grade II listed building whilst simultaneously cheesing off entire neighbourhood and hundreds of unrelated strangers."

prov.lady - am appalled you think i would change the CHARACTER of a grade 2 listed property. i love my home, the exposed brick, beams, stove...why would i wreck it? are you supposing im going to put a upvc window and paint it neon yellow?

Tinytoes, While I was just making the tea I came up with something positive you can do that might save you a lot of money, aggro and hassle in the long run.

Dp is a builder. Whenever people call him round for quotes etc he always says 'do you have planning permission' 'no, we wanted to know how much it would cost first'

He doesn't quote before someone has pp because it can take several nights to work out a quote for some work.

He tells people (and So does Sarah Beeny on Property Ladder) to have an informal chat with a planning officer first. You get them to the site, they have a look at the property, listen to what you want to do, then give a fair assessment (based on their long expereience of types of application on various types of properties in the borough they work in) as to whether you will even get pp at all. Or if you will get it, an idea of any restrictions etc.

You state earlier that its a rare example of a cruck framed house. You also say that you wish to put a window where a door was and put a different type of door on. On a grade II listed building (and I used to live in one with dp1 who was an architect) you will be soooo unlikely to be able to make these changes. And if I haven't listed the exact changes you may have stated then don't pick me up on it as I haven't time to re-read it all to find that post).

You also think that the passage isn't a part somehow of what the listed building consent might cover when it is in the middle of and integral to, two buildings subject to listed building consent.

yes you have to give reasons for your application but I doubt very much that 'because we had child and want to move our kitchen downstairs' is not enough to change the structure of a grade II listed building.

So I'm not going to say again that your budget is ridiculously low, that if I was your neighbour I would object to someone unskilled (yes I am speaking about your dp as a course in plastering isn't the same as a long time learning the skill as a tradesman) working on MY external wall.

Please please just go and have an informal chat with a planning officer. You should have done that at the start, because if planning will not be granted then you have done all this and caused all this hassle, for nothing.

300 people (allowing for multiple posts) can't be wrong. Or can they?
For the record, I started off on here (under 2 nicknames, as I name-changed part-way through) genuinely trying to understand the situation and get clarity. I even wondered, once it became apparent that it was your land after all, if you might have a chance of success. But since then, this whole thing has degenerated into you getting more and more blinkered and, yes, close-minded, and the rest of us getting more and more amused exasperated.

Go back, read the thread, it was all helpful advice at the start, What has upset you is just that it wasn't what you wanted to hear, so you think its an attack.

And flibertygibbet has just spoken a lot of sense, as have a number of others on here. Why not listen to them?

thanks flib i did have her round and we discussed it along with the surveyor. she saw the plans and looked at what we wanted, we discussed it and she was very positive about it all. she could really see the benefits to both us and the neighbours and the character of the house. of course that was a little before this started...lol, im quite aware that as a justification 'because we have a child and need extra space' is not good enough. we have looked at the history and the architecture and nature of the building from its earliest function when it was constructed through to today and the changing facade - including the addition of the passageway.

look, i do know that it might be inconvenient for her while the work is done. and that there might be an issue of noise perhaps. but im really struggling to see how this easement could add any value to her property. especially since she has one in favour of us on hers - surely getting rid of it and saying thats my land, thats your land is better for both of us? its not like she can't get to her back door.

there are some good posters on here, but it isn't that what i wanted to hear wasn't said it was the personal attacks which were uncalled for and to which i retaliated. thats what upset me flib

oh and that some of the posts really were just plain wrong

No I don't think you would do those insensitive things tinytoes, clearly you are interested in doing it properly or your DP wouldn't have learned how to do lime plastering. But part of the character of a C15th house is the higgledy piggledy nature of the passageways and funny bits of access. It's not just about how it looks from the street or you would have free rein to alter the internal walls etc...which you don't. I think it is possible that the local planning committee will allow the changes but I would not be in the least surprised if they didn't. I have some experience in this area as I ran a museum housed in a C14th building that needed major renovations - the restrictions were unbelieveable and you would be surprised at some of the conditions we had imposed. The work was supervised by English Heritage and they had final say on contractors for some of the work as it needed to be done in a way that your ordinary old buildings specialist builders could not do, such as some plastering (I'm not making this up!) that had to be done by the one man in the country who can use the particular C18th technique. So you can see why I have major doubts about this ever happening, even if you get permission, with your very limited budget.

thank you prov.lady - it is a nightmare trying to work out everything that you need to do to fulfil the criteria for pp and listed building consent. but if you don't try you'll never succeed.

It adds value to her property because she doesn't share a wall with you.

I live in a 100 odd year old house in a conservation area (which is hassle enough tbh). I can hear my semi detached neighbours, I can't hear my neighbours on the other side because we have a small passageway between our houses.

This thread was open when dh (a lawyer ) got home. He scanned it and came out of the room chuckling. He commented that it's always wise to avoid getting into a legal row with litigators.

If you can agree it by negotiation and with a trade off of your respective easements which neither of you use, then that's absolutely great. Good luck to you and I hope you get it sorted.

My previous post was merely pointing out the legal position, if you had been unable to agree terms. FWIW, I am not misinformed or wrong about the fact the easement would not be extinguished in court. With all due respect, you are a law student. I have been a surveyor for 10+ years and have dealt with countless boundary disputes, restrictive covenant and right of way issues. I have also lectured in Estate Management.

I was trying to help (as were many others on here)

jim - she shares two thirds of a wall.

Listed building consent is one thing, but building over a restrictive covenant another.

DH reminded me that an old neighbour tried to buy out a restrictive covenant from his neighbour. They said fine, but wanted some sort of ludicrous price for it (20 grand or something) so he couldn't.

You could waste an awful lot of money on this. I'd put it into a fund to move to a bigger place.

and that last third will therefore be even more important to her, I whould think.

tilly - hopefully thats how we'll do it. ps im sorry if you felt i was referring to your posts.

It doesn't matter whether she shares non of a wall or all of one. At the moment she has the benefit of not sharing the entire wall (which will increase market value) and she has a shared right of access. She will of course want compensation for losing these. I believe myself to be a fairly reasonable neighbour, I'm not that bothered about inches of land etc, but I would want compensation for losing those. Anyone would.

jim - we've worked out it WASN'T IT A COVENANT RESTRICTIVE OR ANY OTHER

So what was it then?

just in the land registry.

"but this is not the case as it is a restrictive covenant in the deeds"

Only going on the information you've given tiny.

We lived in a house with 'a restrictive covenant in the deeds' with a neighbour having right of access over our land (it was used once a week for the bin men to collect her bins) and when we erected a fence we had to put it with the lock on the outside so she could access it.

Not fence, gate.