Oops! Just started an accidental neighbour dispute

[tinytoessize4]

Any legal eagles reading? Advice please...

We have a shared passageway only with next door, enclosed at either end, and locked at our end (we did not put the lock on and have evidence to prove this). We thought we owned it outright, but this is not the case as it is a restrictive covenant in the deeds. Anyway, we propsed to move our kitchen downstairs into the passageway area, knockig down our internal wall to create an open room. Yes, we know the planning permission necessary and checked this out. Out of courtesy we informed our neighbour of our pending planning permission application. We have a small son and one bedroom. We only have 2k to do the alterations. I'll continue...we informed her of this, and that she had never utilised the right of access since we had been there and never since the previous owner of our house had been there either. She got a wee bit shirty. Saying that we admitted blocking our passage by placing a lock on the door (!) to which she didn't have a key (why? because she never bothered to get one when whoever put the lock on did it.) and that this was actionable nuisance. grr. she said she wanted monetary compensation for this. We said we didn't have any money. But we do have a shared right of access across the back of her property. We offered to exchange this. She hasn't yet responded. We said it would be best if we met face to face (terrible but we haven't met her and we've been here 2yrs! We were talking by letter). She's a litigation lawyer and though I am a law student, still have a year left. She quoted James v Stevenson [1893] AC 291 at me but I couldn't find it on Westlaw. Where do we stand with regard to the fact the right of access hasn't been exercised by her for about 10yrs? is there any precedent of lapsed right of access? Sorry its long ladies & gents....

I don't need to because I do know that you have seriously p*ssed off your neighbour wrt access and turning her external wall into your internal one and she is going to ensure this never gets done. That and the fact that you only have £2k.

also tinytoes, you were at great pains to point out your own legal knowledge and your friend who is going to do the legal work for you pro bono

he is the one you should be discussing this, not mumsnet

Tiny, with all due respect, why are you going on then? You are in the wrong. My points B (with the exception that I couldn't possibly know the occupancy of your house in 20 years time), C & D stand quite well to a reasonable objective mind.

WRT B) All the documents I have read, state that abandonment of easement is very hard to prove, that it needs to be at least 40 years in any case in practice, and that failing to use a right of way does not constitute abandonment.

WRT C) I have not seen a single poster agree with either your approach or wording of your initial communication. ALL have stated that your letter gave the impression that you intended to do the work regardless of your neighbour's opinion. ALL thought it was a bad move.

WRT D) Any estate agent would agree that in the same area, a house of the same age, same size, same facilities, same circumstances, a detatched property would sell at a higher price than a semi, a semi would sell higher than a terraced house, an end of terrace would sell at a higher price than a mid-terrace.

What makes the difference between a mid-terraced property and an end-of-terrace? One party wall instead of two. Finito. Whether or not it is important to you, that part of the house that has an external wall increases the value of her house.

It doesn't matter why there is a through passage. If there was a through passage at the time of listing, your chances of getting permission to fill it in are extremely low.

twig, jimjam - yes grade 2 listed. and as someone put on here previously you can only get pp for conservatories on that(?!!!!)

as long as the justification for the change in character can be given then there is a chance. as long as it is sympathetically done there is a chance. in fact, if you don't try there's no chance.

We live in grade 2 listed and they wouldn't let us put a feckin sky dish up or chose a colour to paint the outside of our house without prior notice and it going before the village council - and it took 8 months to get a window replaced which was exactley the same as the leaking one that was already in as it could have effected the historical integrity of the building - you will not get this passed without sleeping with the planning officer and half the council!

do you think your houses might be grade II listed because of the architectural significance of the central passageway through the ground floor whilst the top floors adjoin.

has planning permission even been granted? this might all be pie in the sky
and your neighbour will vociferously object
don;t hold your breath on getting it done

It doesn't matter if you have an arsenal of legality behind you, or if you have the planning permission to change your grade two listed building, or if you have all the specialist plastering ability in the uk.

You do not have the right to alter a neighbours property without their permission.

And you seem to be lacking the social grace and savvy to realise that you have approached this lady in a confrontational manner. And I would not hold out much hope of you resolving this.

We are not the "mumsnet brigade." We are a disparate group of ordinary people, strangers to one another, who have taken the details on this issue from what you have told us, thrown our hands up in horror almost to a person and said, pretty much, YOU WILL NOT BE ABLE TO DO THIS.

lol at the fact that we're all self opinionated blighters on this forum!

soupdragon - no, you are wrong in this. they will take into consideration the reason for its existence and for its continuance. through passageways were popular for access to enclosed courtyards, they were also popular for separation of function and defense. as examples, not exhaustive.

lou, have you looked at the case law? there are cases which support both myself and her. it does not necessarily have to be 40yrs. it is based on the individual merits of the case at hand.

some friends recently extended a house that is listed and in some sort of conservation area IIRC, they had to amend their plans to include certain types of brick and stone, a certain round window, the colour of what they could do was controlled.. it took almost a year to get permission including major work with architects which of course is not cheap.. and this was without any neighbours in the vicinity who could object

I am just agog at this thread

[agog]

clam -sorry, i didn't mean to offend with the mumsnet brigade but disparate or not you all band together when theres a juicy argument going on.

twig - the architectural significance and listed status was o nthe fact that it is a rare example of a cruck constructed house. not on the passage which was a later 18th century addition when the facade was redone.

planning permission has been granted in the past to both properties.though not for this matter.

Just because it's based on the individual merits of each case, does not mean your proposal will be passed. And especially not if she objects.

Tinytoes, I think that the conclusion you should be coming to is that whilst your idea was genius in your own mind, makes perfect sense to you, and would make your living space better, it would be unacceptable to your neighbour, and so you have to rethink.

To accept gracefully that you have omitted to thoroughly consider the implications of your plan is the mature way out of this situation.

To doggedly continue is a way for a fool only.

have you had quotes or estimates for the work?

I don't agree that we all band together for a juicy argument. We agree on this one because, I'm sorry to say it, you really are in the wrong.

I said your chances of getting permission to fill it in are extremely low. not impossible but low. I don't think your justification for having it done will be strong enough.

answer my questions , dammit!!

How was the passage added later? Were the properties completely detached before and a top added or did they tunnel through?

lulumama.... Tiny has listed quotes (estimates?) somewhere previously.

13.51 this afternoon.....

thanks clam, it does not say if a quote or an estimate. if it is a quote, it is binding, an estimate is not. so it does make a difference

The land registry site states:

"12.2.3 Abandonment
The person entitled to the
easement must not only have
stopped exercising it, but also
to have ?demonstrated a fixed
intention never at any time
thereafter to assert the right
himself or to attempt to transmit it
to anyone else? (Tehidy Minerals v
Norman [1971] 2 QB 528, per
Buckley LJ). The circumstances
that are claimed to amount to
abandonment must be set out in
a statutory declaration."

Would you say that you have evidence to support this? I would say that your neighbour's reply to your initial letter indicates that she very much considers it her right to use the access at any point that she desires.