Am I in big trouble??

[Bigcoat1]

Hi Everyone,

i think I might be in big trouble. My mum passed recently. For the last 4 or 5 years I held power of attorney and handled all of her financial affairs. We never had a formal diagnosis of dementia etc, however she became Increasingly confused so I just took over.
mum was quite well off with around 150k in savings, an income of 2k per month and a mortgage free home. My finances have been difficult since my divorce.
On a few occasions I borrowed from mom’s account when I was desperate. I always paid the money back asap. I never discussed this with mum although I know she she would have consented.
her affairs are now being looked over as part of private etc and I’m terrified that this roll come to light and I’ll be in huge trouble.
I know I can’t undo what’s been done, but what should I expect to happen?

But your DM isn't around to say she didn't give you permission and you paid the money back so I don't see the issue?

This sounds like another of those 'my friend told me something daft which I'm choosing to believe over common sense' situations.

You’re giving this way more headspace than it deserves-and I mean that with kindness! When I had POA for my parents, they’d have been peed off if I was short and I’d not borrowed from them!
Don’t over share these things with “helpful” friends-they’re causing you unnecessary anxiety which you don’t need.

Despite all the comments trying to reassure you or just being ignorant - no you should absolutely not have paid yourself “loans” out of her account, even if you did pay it back promptly. You are in clear breach of the POA rules and it would be classed as financial abuse. As to whether you you will get in trouble depends on several factors I imagine - how often did you do it, what sums are we talking about, how quickly (if at all) you paid it back, who exactly is going through the accounts and would they have a duty of care to report what they find…
Sorry OP but bottom line is you really shouldn’t have done it. As a POA you are a trustee - the key word is “trust”. You are entrusted to manage her finances in her best interests not your own.

Sorry OP but bottom line is you really shouldn’t have done it

She knows that.

Agree. If someone was ‘borrowing’ money from my account without my permission I would report to the police. Whether or not they paid it back. Definitely financial abuse. And if large sums and you were taking interest free loans then imho it should be reported.

Plus if your mum was confused and lacked capacity how could she give consent for you to take her money?

Common sense would make you think it’s ok as you repaid it. However, you have to consider the legality of what you did. I had LPA for my parents, so I know the rule is that you act only in the donor’s best interests and do not benefit yourself from the donor’s money.

Legally it could be treated as misappropriation or an unauthorised loan. In my opinion, the fact it was fully repaid means it’s unlikely to escalate, but you should have records of the dates, amounts and proof of repayment.

Who will be scrutinising? I doubt anyone will look or care. Unless you have family members who are due to benefit from the estate, who will know?

I have POA for my mums account and I have used her money to buy gifts for her grandchildren as she would always have done and also to buy the same gift for me as she always gave me at Christmas and birthdays. She has dementia and says I’m to use her money to do this although she would never remember saying it. But advice I was given was that this is acceptable and that it’s unlikely that it would ever be scrutinised anyway as I am also the executor. My mum is still alive and so this has not yet reached the point where I have to account for her finances. But when the time comes I shall just list it as Xmas expenses etc. I know it’s not loans so it’s different but this money is not returned to her account. She’d be livid if she wasn’t able to give the gifts she so enjoyed giving before dementia hit. So I continue and show her pics of the kids opening her presents. It makes her very happy to get the thank you messages.

If it’s all been repaid then you have nothing to be concerned about, there will be a clear trail of money out, money in.

All the people saying “it’s fine as long as you paid it back” are talking utter rubbish. It’s theft. Is it ok to steal £1000 from your employer as long as you paid it back a week later? Op is benefitting from an interest free loan each time she does this. I’m presuming she didn’t pay it back plus interest did she?
The only caveat may be if there is a documented history of the mum giving her regular payments and she continued that standing tradition. Eg if DM gave £100/mth and there is evidence (eg bank statements) and OP continued to do this it would probably considered acceptable. If it was cash in hand and no evidence then not.

As you mention the POA rules allow for reasonable expenses including things likes gifts for Xmas and birthdays. What it doesn’t allow for is loans to the trustee.
It depends a lot of how much we are talking - £100 paid back 4 days later probably not worth pushing; but £5000 paid back 6 months later will not be looked at favourably.

Agree with PP about the rules of POA. You have to make sure that every financial decision is in the interest and to the benefit of the person you have POA for. You should not benefit from it, which you have done even though you paid it back. The rules are very clear. You are making decisions on behalf of the person but that does not mean you can use their bank account as a personal loan service. The fact that it is all paid back will probably mean that nothing will happen. However, without meaning to upset you or be nasty what you have done is illegal and considered financial abuse. You say she would have consented but you cant know that. This is why the rules are very clear. It is to stop.people saying that that tbe person would have been fine with it so it is all okay. The people on here telling you that it is okay are very wrong.

How much was taken from her account and how much was paid back into it ?

Is there evidence of it ?

If not you could be seen negatively

But that is not whatvtbe OP was doing. The rules are very clear and allow for Birthday and Christmas gifts so long as tbey dont suddenly go feom the person spending £25 on a gift to gifts of 10 times that. What OP was doing was not the same and depending on the amounts involved could be an issue. The accounts are being examined as part of the Probate process so will be looked carefully.

Not correct. Having POA explicitly means that you cant give yourself a loan from the person's account. It's probably best not to give advice on something that you dont know anything about, especially when there could be legal implications for the OP.

Even if this was the case it would need to be written into the POA document.

You are missing the fact that OP had POA for her mother and that it is explicitly against the rules to borrow money from the person you have POA for unless it is written into the POA document.

A written agreement in the form of it being explicitly documented as part of the POA is exactly what is needed when you are taking control of someone else's money. That is the law.

I really hope that most of the people that have replied to this thread do not have POA for anyone given the amount of people that seem to think it is fine to do this when it is absolutely against the rules.

Problem is as your POA she doesnt have authority to “loan” that money so to speak, so yes you could actually get into trouble for this unfortunately. But as you have repaid it they might let it slide. Many people commenting on here clearly don’t understand how POA works.

indeed.

No one will know you didn’t ask, dont worry!

a) this is obviously wrong, and an abuse of POA, and the OP could get into trouble if anyone finds out about it

but

b) it’s possible that no-one will ever know

As the OP hasn’t explained the situation it’s impossible to tell whether there is an actual
investigation under way by the Office of the Public Guardian, because an executor has identified an anomaly, or whether this will continue to go undetected because the OP is the executor.

Ffs. She has POA. There is no one to ask. That’s why there is a POA - the person you would ask isn’t capable of making their own financial decisions and has signed over those decision making responsibilities to someone else - OP.

No, that isn’t necessarily true. I managed all my mum’s affairs on her behalf, at her request, and in consultation with her over every transaction, because she retained capacity up until her last few days.

But if OP had POA it was because her Mum wasn't capable and if that WAS the case then her Mum could not consent
OP, it was wrong, not allowable under POA rules and it was theft BUT you are unlikley to get into any trouble for it now if you paid it all back.