How do people afford to live in London?

[galwithkids]

What it says in the title really..
We live in a 2 bed flat with our 2 DCs (4m 3m) in London zone 3. I love our area, I love London and I don’t want to move away. However I keep wondering if everyone around me is making more money that us to be able to live comfortably? Both me and DH work full time in demanding jobs and we bring home approx £9000 net. Our monthly outgoings are £7300. I have tried everything to bring this number down but I am not able to. This is just family basic living expenses, no extras, no commute or car costs, personal
phone or subscriptions not included. I have worked SO hard to bring myself to a point of earning that much, and yet every month I am left without any spare money, I never spend any money for myself, all my clothes are from Primark or H&M, the kids clothes and toys are all second hand, we don’t order take out, the weekends are usually free activities in the park or museums, I don’t save any because there isn’t any left. I feel like I have worked so hard for so long to bring myself to a decent salary level and yet I am not living the life that should come with it. I don’t want extravagant expenses, I don’t mind shopping at Primark. But I would like to have some
savings for the kids’ future, and I have nothing because money is never enough. What am I doing wrong?

also I would assume at your level you are both getting 6 weeks annual leave at least I think it is important that at least half of that is taken together so 4 weeks together 2 weeks DH, 2 weeks you that's 8 weeks of the 13 weeks of school holidays accounted for so childcare feb and may and october half terms, 1 week together at easter one week child care, 2 weeks in the summer together 1 week you 1 week Dh 2 -3 weeks child care, Christmas is a balancing act as child care rarely available or expensive but with bank holidays and some annual leave you should cope total about 6-7 weeks of holiday childcare needed once both in school in about 18 months it will be better and easier so hang tight and budget harder

Thank you, all great suggestions and things to think about

@galwithkids I just had a quick Google of primary schools in the Highgate area and I found 4 that all have a nursery class (ages 3-4 - EYFS year 1) which if your boy only goes to nursery for 3 hours in the morning (his 15 hours) I still really cannot understand what you are paying a nursery for.
What exactly is your nursery charging you for? I know some (even school ones) might charge for snacks or lunch (if they stay for lunch) -.but seriously.....what on earth are you actually paying for? It sounds like you're being "had" tbh.

Although I don’t need to explain my specific situation, I am off this week

Wait lists for nurseries are over a year. It was the only one that had a space and can accomodate for his physical disability

Yes you are right. I guess for the past few years with 2 under 2 and a demanding job I found all this organising very overwhelming and I relied on hired help. I am now in a better position mentally so I will look into a plan for annual leave

We earn a little more than you but we also have four children. We manage childcare very differently so it costs us significantly less despite having two at nursery full time.

We use after school club that runs until 18:00. This was a consideration when we chose schools. We didn't even go to look at schools without ASC that runs later. One of us does drop offs and the other picks up. We manage our diaries accordingly. We are both senior and earn almost equally so it makes sense to do that. We have a few babysitters that we use if we need to if we truly can't work around pick ups but that is only the case a few times a year. We pay them double the going rate so they are very keen to help (still costs us a fraction of your babysitter!).

We have moved to SE London still zone 3 to get our commutes to work better and be shorter. And so that we can afford the space we need. Our mortgage is pretty similar to yours but for that we have 5 bedrooms and a large garden.

We also have a cleaner but for four hours a week and the house is much larger (but if clothes require ironing I just don't buy them!)

Honestly we have a really nice life. It's about the decisions you make and how you manage it. Would I prefer to live in Highgate? Probably yes, but it would mean a longer commute and a much smaller house or larger mortgage.

Thank you, may I please ask where you moved to?

I don’t understand why your nanny isn’t doing some housework in the mornings whilst your youngest is in nursery. My husbands sister had an au pair/housekeeper who was paid well (as yours is), but she was perfectly happy to chip in and help. She would prepare dinner etc too when asked. It seems ludicrous that you’re paying her so well to have time to herself in the day, just because you’re concerned she might leave! Make more use of her or replace her with someone who will muck in more.

I think the other issue is that lots of people living in London are not necessarily living in the most expensive areas, with jobs that seemingly don’t give them time to breathe or participate in family life during the week. A lot of those in London will have one higher earner and one lower, with more flexibility to accommodate the children. Both of you are very career driven and that isn’t totally compatible with having a family as well.

My children have always been to breakfast and after school clubs, which have always run until 6pm. I’m not in London but some of my husbands family are and theirs also ran to a similar time. I’ve never heard of one only running until 4.30pm as its purpose is specifically to help working families. If you took a more flexible role once the children were both in education and able to use the after school clubs til later, you could do away with the nanny altogether. If that saved you over £40k per year, even with a pay cut, you’re better off and get a bit more time with the children.

I don’t mean to sound rude but the life you and your husband choose to live, with both chasing your careers and insisting on living a very expensive life, is not allowing you to spend much time as a family in the week. Do you really want your nanny (however helpful) to be raising your children for over 70% of their week? Obviously you make your choices as we all do, but children aren’t young for long. I know your focus was on finances but surely there can be a better balance in terms of lifestyle too.

@galwithkids ok ignore my comment about spare time at work.
School nurseries generally don't have waiting lists though (unless full - and someone has moved into the area).
You apply in a similar way to Reception (ie by a specific date each year) just directly through the school not the LA.
If he had a physical disability have you got or started an EHCP for him (he will need that for Reception).
My main point though is that if you are paying a nanny to take care of him you don't need to be sending him to nursery too.
The nanny can use those 3 hours a day to do activities within the community - Stay and Play sessions , church run playgroups, library story time, library rhyme time, soft play at a local leisure centre (suitable for his needs obviously)
I can guarantee you that there is probably some (free or very cheap) activities on in the Highgate area every single day.
Will he start Reception next September? If yes then get the nanny (who you pay for) to look after him in the community. You don't need nursery.

Thank you this is very useful food for thought.

the nanny does all the kids-related housework, folding their laundry, tidying toys etc and cooking dinner when asked to (usually 1-2 times per week). Yes its true that I pay her so she doesn’t leave. She has been with us for 4 years, I trust her. I find it difficult to build this trust again with someone else. She is reliable and she also stays late if I ask her last minute (if I am late to return for example).

The cleaner would do all the proper cleaning jobs, bathrooms floors etc My DC1 has asthma triggered by dust so we do need her to be thorough. I could potentially cut one hour off though.

OP, if you move to Herne Hill/North Dulwich/East Dulwich, there are a) plenty of schools with decent ASC, and b) lots of nurseries open 7-7pm. This one, that DS went to for a while, has it’s own pet ducks, French lessons and tennis lessons, and nature garden.

And if you work in south London, hopefully shorter commute for you.

A 3-4 bedroom house will be £1-1.2m, but you will easily find a two bedroom garden flat for £650-750k.

Thank you very much

I do get it OP. I know you don't get much sympathy on mumsnet, and that is fair enough as your position is very privileged and i think it is natural for people to feel defensive and compare tour life. But I don't think you need to be in objectively the worst position ever to have problems.

It sounds like you both earn £80-110k, and you feel like those are great salaries and you should be living financial stress free. But wages have stagnated in recent decades and those salaries don't stretch as far as they used to. The typical "middle class life" used to be achievable on these kind of good professional salaries, and it's just not these days especially in london. My parents probably had similar earning power to my husband and I, and they had 3 kids in a huge house in a posh area and we all went to private school and skiing every year etc. My kids will not get that!

But even in london your childcare sounds extreme! I get that you don't want to think about it, which is totally valid - life working ft and with small kids is crazy and if you want to outsource that, go for it - but it is a big luxury to do none of the juggling that pretty much every parent I know in london does, and that's what you're paying for.

The wfh/flexible jobs you're talking about, you are complaining at a £20k pay cut - but after tax that is £12k, I.e. £1k/month. If you wfh you could start at 9 - or 915/930 depending on your school run - and drop the kids yourself, so you'd only need the nanny from 3pm onwards. Surely that would save £1k!

We are at the edge of Westcombe Park
in Greenwich. Although we are moving to Eltham at the very edge of Greenwich (zone 4) as our eldest passed the 11+ and want to move closer to the secondary school.

People can be mean on here.
Keep the cleaner. But maybe cut down her hours a bit. You don't need to deep clean each room every week. The Nanny should also clean. Maybe your cleaner can do some of the Nanny job. She sounds amazing.

You aren't seeing your kids. You need some respite.

Thank you. I know people can be mean on here, it doesn’t phase me. I got some good advice which is what I needed

You are spot on thank you.

in regards to the WFH jobs, my main reasoning for not taking one of them was that then for my next job after that one I would be starting at a lower base, which would reduce my negotiating power. I know it sounds silly but I tend to look more in the future than in the now, maybe this is something for me to work on.

I really don’t think it’s possible to have it all. It sounds like you’ve done really well with your career (and your husband too) but there is generally a compromise once you have children and as unfair as it seems, it may impact on potential jobs and earning power. Does it mean that much that it’s not worth it though? Only you and your husband can decide that, but I think people are either earning a lot more to have so much help (with the cost being less time with children), or one of them gives a little to have more flexibility and that means a financial cost.

I don't think it's silly at all, salary is the reason we go to work after all! And pension contributions etc etc.

But if what you're saying is that the only job in the world that will pay you the salary you want is the one you have, and it requires 5 days in office - and you have a long commute and don't want to move - and you don't want to do the childcare juggle - there's just not really much else you can change.

And I don't mean that snarkily, you seem to have a lot going for you - lovely area you like, no childcare worries, affordable budget if not the savings and extra luxuries you were holding for, housework mainly outsourced. It is OK to choose that.

But if you're not OK with it, the stress/spending/etc - it's also OK to look at changing

This is how we afford to live in London, on less than half your take home pay. Sorry but minimal sympathy.

@Menomeno would you mind linking the guardian article? I can't see it on the money section of their website and it sounds interesting!

It’s quite an eye opener!

https://amp.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2024/jan/24/britain-richest-10-per-cent-wealthy-inequality-labour-private-schools

But I don't think the article is saying that rich people are just idiots who dont understand wealth, though. Nobody judges their financial comfort by looking at a list of statistics - ah, I'm top 10 percentile, I now feel richer, oh I am bottom now I feel poor. We all base it on what our lives look like and what we can afford.

Wages have slowed and cost of living has increased massively, especially lately. The poorest segment of society in the UK is much worse off than their equivalents in our European equivalents. And pretty much everyone who relies on their salary has been impacted by that- even if their salary is one you think is amazing.

Sarah, who works part time for minimum wage at Tesco, is struggling to afford food.

Susan, who is a lawyer is now struggling to afford increased mortgage rates and private school.

Obviously, Sarah is worse off. Obviously, if I could help someone it would be Sarah. I don't think anyone is saying that Susan's problems compare at all to Sarah's.

But they are both signs of real problems with society. Those expensive class signifiers were accessible by people at Susan's level until quite recently - is it really a surprise that having followed the study/training/practice route , when Susan can't afford the lifestyle that used to be at that level she doesn't feel wealthy. Yes, she is compared to the population- but we are all getting poorer except those at the very top and that is I think a really worrying indication.

Spot on