How do people afford to live in London?

[galwithkids]

What it says in the title really..
We live in a 2 bed flat with our 2 DCs (4m 3m) in London zone 3. I love our area, I love London and I don’t want to move away. However I keep wondering if everyone around me is making more money that us to be able to live comfortably? Both me and DH work full time in demanding jobs and we bring home approx £9000 net. Our monthly outgoings are £7300. I have tried everything to bring this number down but I am not able to. This is just family basic living expenses, no extras, no commute or car costs, personal
phone or subscriptions not included. I have worked SO hard to bring myself to a point of earning that much, and yet every month I am left without any spare money, I never spend any money for myself, all my clothes are from Primark or H&M, the kids clothes and toys are all second hand, we don’t order take out, the weekends are usually free activities in the park or museums, I don’t save any because there isn’t any left. I feel like I have worked so hard for so long to bring myself to a decent salary level and yet I am not living the life that should come with it. I don’t want extravagant expenses, I don’t mind shopping at Primark. But I would like to have some
savings for the kids’ future, and I have nothing because money is never enough. What am I doing wrong?

That's true in my experience too. The leadership team and senior management are expected to be in-person 5 days a week. More junior staff actually have more flex in this.

Completely agree. I think you're getting a tough time here, OP.

Ive since changed careers but when my three kids were younger and I was starting a business (DH also self-employed) our nanny was like a third parent and we depended on her completely. The peace of mind, knowing that you have flexible coverage...it was priceless. We had only two nannies over a period of 10 years and the prospect of a transition was really stressful. So I get how important that support is. I'd just have her doing more - and really, don't bother with the nursery.

That's also what we did - reduced hours once all kids were in school. Three hours a day was meal prep, laundry, running errands, then all the hours after school was completely focused on the kids.

i miss her 😂

Thank you for your non-judgmental comment. A lot have suggested flexi-work but I am struggling to understand how WFH would help much with living costs though? Apart from commuting costs? I am literally glued to my laptop 9-6, I barely get up to have lunch. I certainly won’t have time to do pickup or keep the kids entertained while I am working. Sure I might be able to do a load of washing or reduce my lunch cost by eating at home, but these aren’t significant savings. What else can you do while you WFH?

I work from home in a relatively senior role in finance and I don't know anyone who is literally glued to their laptop the whole day and doesn't get the chance for a break. I don't take 'an hour for lunch' but I will chuck a wash on before I log on or run the hoover round (I start work at 8 and kids are out the door with DH at 7.30). And there are other things I can do that just take 10 mins here and there.
Eldest (9) walks home but sometimes I'll take a walk to collect him and youngest is in after school club. Eldest does his own thing while I work (saving me childcare costs) but usually has football training at 6pm so wfh allows me to get him out for that. DH will get youngest on his way home.
I would normally spend £20 on an office day (train/coffee/lunch).
WFH is transformational in my opinion to have a balanced life. I would choose it over a pay rise at my point in life.

No job is worth missing being at your father's deathbed. I wonder what you'll reflect on when the time comes and you're on yours – that you had a live enriched by personal relationships and experiences, or that you hardly saw your kids growing up, missed your dad dying but, hey, our cleaner and nanny were worth every penny.

You've also finally admitted you live in Highgate. No wonder your bills are sky-high! That's one of the most eye-wateringly expensive areas in London. Move somewhere cheaper!

Re WFH, OP I'm not sure there's enough space in your flat for this to happen comfortably as well as nanny caring for toddler after nursery,so moving may need to be considered sooner than preferred

Given everything you've described about your job and what it has taken to get there, do you actually like it? Doesn't sound like it. Would look for another job with more flexible hours. Being glued to a laptop 9-6 sounds crap.

Also with regard to how does anyone else manage it, it's very very rare to have a nanny, let alone pay for nursery too, you're on your own with that one. Literally no one else does that.

Of course working from home helps. That hour commute a day is 2hrs a day free to take children to school and nursery and Chuck some laundry on.

I think the WFH suggestion was to do with making life feel more manageable, rather than a way to cut costs significantly. I do not think having children should be a barrier to a career but being out of the house 8-7 five days a week is a long time. WFH would give you two hours per day of your life back, so even just twice a week that would be four more hours to spend with the children, throw some washing in, have a quick tidy round. In turn, the cleaners hours could be reduced and the nanny’s slightly so you would save a little. From the sounds of things, you want to continue as you are with the nanny, nursery, the cleaner and didn’t sound keen on wfh. So it probably is going to be a case of accepting your current costs, knowing they will reduce once you don’t need the nursery and nanny.

Yes we both changed jobs since buying the flat. Also we weren’t planning on having children so soon. This flat is not really equipped for family life but any larger in the area is out of budget

Thanks. I am very keen on WFH, I would love to be able to do that. I have looked extensively for roles in my field that offer hybrid work, but every one I found came with a significant pay cut (circa £20k down). So the math didn’t work if we wanted to keep the hired help.

Thanks all I will look into cutting the cleaner hours, I haven’t considered that 5 hours are a lot. We had this arrangement because she had to work around the kids’ naps but now they no longer nap so it’s definitely something to consider. And I will continue looking for hybrid jobs, hoping to find one soon

Posters are merely trying to bring the OP back down to earth. She can well afford the luxuries she has, she just seems miffed that she has to pay for them. Paying for a nanny not to work is a luxury. Paying for a "great" nursery when you can get a free one is a luxury. Paying a cleaner for 5 hours per week for a 2 bed is a luxury.

OP "My concern is that I don’t think I can cut back on anything without severely affecting my sanity. I can’t drop the cleaner, I have no time to clean the flat which with 2 little kids is in an absolute state.. I am trying to be mindful of the food bill, but I also don’t have time to shop around for bargains. Everything else is a set cost, for childcare I could look at other options but this will affect us by not having the ad hoc help we have now"
There you go. Sanity is EXPENSIVE

I feel like I am in a similar position as both DH and I work long hours and have good careers but have relatively little to show for it. Things are just much harder for us financially than it was for the previous generation.

There are places where you could trim the fat but you stand firm on maintaining your cleaner and nursery. And that's fair enough. It's your money, your choice.

Once your youngest starts school you will be better off. Also if you move to a house at some stage you will ditch the Service charge. Just hang in there. You're not alone and you are in a better position than many others because you can expect your position to be much improved in the next few years. But I appreciate it is hard.

Thank you. And believe me I completely get how privileged we are. The point of my question was to understand how people can manage to live in London with little kids while working full time. People have given me things to think about.

My answer to that OP is that I don’t. I left London at aged 29 when I had just got married and knew I wanted to start a family. My 2 bed 1st floor flat wasn’t going to work with babies etc and upsizing to a house was a big financial commitment that would have tied me for years.

What is specific in my situation was I was not actually from London, I just moved there post uni for the graduate job, so I went back to my home city after 8 years, where I had family around that could help with childcare and took my London equity to jump a couple of rungs on the housing ladder in home city. Also used/ use a nanny, cleaner, gardener, outsource ironing, but the costs were lower than in London. So I still manage to save etc.

Most of us pick ASC that runs later than 16:30 - ours runs to 18:00. Costs £10 per day. And we use holiday clubs, which are generally around £250 per week. Much cheaper than £4K per month.

And as someone said upthread, you stagger your working days. One starts work early and leaves at 5pm to do pick up at 6pm. The other starts work at 9am so they can drop off at breakfast club.

I work flexible hours, so I can leave for drop off M-W, but work to 10pm on Thurs and Fri (and some weekends) to compensate. DH does most drop offs, and picks up from ASC at 6pm on Thursdays and Fridays.

This does require buy-in from the other parent, and if you are unfortunate enough to have a partner who is happy for your career to go out of the window as long as he isn’t inconvenienced by family life in any way, then you may need the nanny. Or a divorce.

Surely you have noticed that other parents at the school gate don’t all have nannies? They aren’t all SAHMs.

Thanks, yes true I have noticed the other parents but I don’t know them well enough to ask what they do and what’s their arrangement. I will try to find out.

i will have a conversation with DH about changes in our work patterns, not sure how much we will be allowed to do but it won’t hurt asking our bosses

the mistake is thinking you have 1700 left (20k per year) when actually you don't as I mentioned earlier your incidentals are a minimum of £6000 a year before looking at car costs, not just fuel but MOT insurrance service and parts ( if it doesn't need new tyres this year it will next same with brake pads etc) so that's easily another £1500 add on a week's holiday £2000 and in reality you have 10K left or about £800 per month for all extras, you could probably shave a £100 off your food budget, maybe another £100 off your cleaner by dropping to 4 hours a week. that gives you £1000 spare, which my suggestion is £500 savings and £250 each to you and DH for discretionary spending. When your youngest starts school in September 2025 then you can rethink childcare

Does your Nanny live with you? She's sucking all the income. Why isn't your four year old in nursery?

@galwithkids the fact you are on Mumsnet at half 10 on a workday shows you have "spare" time at work - so surely your bosses can let you adapt your working hours.
I would seriously think about moving to a cheaper property - there's plenty of places in London that are much cheaper. Was your flat marketed as "luxury"? Forget that. Sell up and buy a modest property. What made you choose Highgate? One of the most expensive parts of London?

Why can't the nanny do some cleaning?

OP we live near each other.

i promise you there are great nurseries around here that don’t cost what yours is charging. Mine have been to them.

unless DC is in Highgate pre-prep or similar.

I can PM you some to look at if you want.

i think your areas to consider are:

first
your childcare choices. You are currently spending £10-20k A YEAR on some luxury choices - a pricey nursery and having your nanny on call.

you could spend a lot on emergency childcare before you get to £20k a year.

if you believe your choices are worth it, that’s fine, but you have to own that this is where your disposable income is going

second
your job. I wondered if you are a doctor which is the only job I can think of where you HAVE to be onsite to work.

as you work in head office, what happened during the pandemic? Surely everyone worked from home?

it’s retail, you are not saving lives. They are obliged to consider flexible working requests.

i work for a big corporate and 2 days a week from home is now standard.

the difference working from home would make is you and your DH could take it in turns to do the school / nursery run, and you could change your nanny for 20 hours a week afternoons and holidays nanny.

and save £15-20k a year of disposable income! That is A LOT

again in this area there are plenty of Nannies looking for that - we have one and so do several families I know.

Yes you are absolutely right and I will start tracking all expenses from now