How do people afford to live in London?

[galwithkids]

What it says in the title really..
We live in a 2 bed flat with our 2 DCs (4m 3m) in London zone 3. I love our area, I love London and I don’t want to move away. However I keep wondering if everyone around me is making more money that us to be able to live comfortably? Both me and DH work full time in demanding jobs and we bring home approx £9000 net. Our monthly outgoings are £7300. I have tried everything to bring this number down but I am not able to. This is just family basic living expenses, no extras, no commute or car costs, personal
phone or subscriptions not included. I have worked SO hard to bring myself to a point of earning that much, and yet every month I am left without any spare money, I never spend any money for myself, all my clothes are from Primark or H&M, the kids clothes and toys are all second hand, we don’t order take out, the weekends are usually free activities in the park or museums, I don’t save any because there isn’t any left. I feel like I have worked so hard for so long to bring myself to a decent salary level and yet I am not living the life that should come with it. I don’t want extravagant expenses, I don’t mind shopping at Primark. But I would like to have some
savings for the kids’ future, and I have nothing because money is never enough. What am I doing wrong?

@galwithkids I live in central London with a 4 year old. I have lots of friends with children of the same age plus all my son's pals at nursery/school. I don't know a single person who has a FT nanny other than one family where the father was an overpaid investment banker. As others have said, a nanny is the most expensive childcare option that there is. There are benefits but you pay handsomely for that.

Thank you for your non-judgmental comment. A lot have suggested flexi-work but I am struggling to understand how WFH would help much with living costs though? Apart from commuting costs? I am literally glued to my laptop 9-6, I barely get up to have lunch. I certainly won’t have time to do pickup or keep the kids entertained while I am working. Sure I might be able to do a load of washing or reduce my lunch cost by eating at home, but these aren’t significant savings. What else can you do while you WFH?

And how do they/you manage childcare out of school hours when both parents are working full time and are away 8-7? Genuinely asking. DC2 finishes school at 12. DC1 who is in reception goes to school 9-3. Even if i got a place in breakfast and after school clubs (both of which are ridiculously oversubscribed and might take a year to find a place) he will be at school 8.30-4.30. I would still need someone/something for the other hours. Plus school holidays. Clubs end at 3pm. I genuinely don’t know how this can be managed without a nanny?

Loads of us work bloody hard. We still have to cut our cloth.

We have a similar household income to you. My eyes are popping out of my head at your choices. Or rather, it's fine to make those choices but you would have to be very dimwitted not to realise that they are very extravagant and inevitably the trade off is you have substantially less to spend on other things.

I spend £350 a month on just one child's hobby. Several hundred a month on tutors and other hobbies and a fair amount on a cleaner 4 hours a week (for 5 bed house 4 kids and a dog), and a chunk on a dog walker. It would be right for people to think me very stupid indeed if I sat around wringing my hands about my clothing budget being quite small.

In answer to your question re why after you’ve worked so hard and made so many sacrifices, you’re still priced out of London: there’s no correlation between hard work and earnings. There’s another thread running at the moment about just this, it’s eye opening.

In a way, and anyway, this is the wrong question because the only conclusion you can reach is that you made some wrong choices for what you want out of life. Instead, you should look at what you can do to make London more affordable and enjoyable given what you have. You have a lot. You don’t have enough for what you want. So either adjust what you have, or adjust what you want.

And, for a city like London, you will almost always feel “poor”. There are people who keep massive detached homes in central running all year round, as their second or third homes. There are a lot of people like this. Compare yourself to them, you’ll feel like a pauper. But there are people who live in houses and raise families and commute and have full and rich and happy lives, too, on as much or less money than you have. Choose your company wisely. You have made some extremely luxury lifestyle choices.

This isn’t about my clothing budget, I couldn’t care less about that.

@galwithkids For the younger child, most parents I know would use FT nursery (ours was 7.30 - 6 although there were others with longer hours). We have an afterschool nanny who does from 3.30 - 7ish but we also went for a primary school (state) which has an excellent provision for working parents. It was one of our main criteria. DH and I work around each other and both of us generally finish earlier than we used to and then work at night once DS has gone to bed; we still work 12-15 hours a day just at slightly different times. Sickness is a pain in the bum but DS has only had one day off sick in the last six months - we might be lucky there though! Like most people, it's a bit ad hoc and sometimes it's all fine and sometimes it falls apart. There aren't that many childminders around us but there are a couple and they are popular too.

You do know what childcare costs are like these days right?

The parents share the load.... One parent does drop off to breakfast club/nursery and works till later. One parent heads to work earlier and leaves in time to collect from childminder/after school/nursery.

And then both parents do their share of cleaning/holiday cover /sick child cover.

(I mean, I managed it all as a single parent with a big career and an undiagnosed disability, but it's certainly far easier now DH helps too - and he's a step parent yet he does half the school runs and more than half the housework - I am disabled - as well as managing a very senior job)

Thank you for this honest answer I appreciate it and it will make me think

You mentioned Primark more than once in your op...

I think you’re getting unfairly rinsed here OP. The fact is MN is full of people who paid off their peanuts mortgages and have no idea how much rent on an equivalent would be or what service charges are like or how much childcare costs now.

100k in London is not enough a solidly middle class lifestyle anymore, especially if you’re paying for childcare. It shouldn’t be that way but it is.

People are also short termist about paying for childcare and will say you should just give up work. That’s a temporary cost but keeping your pension contributions going and keeping your hand in on the corporate ladder will pay dividends.

racetothebottomistas and Jealous Janets out in force as usual.

OK. Here’s how it works for us:

DS is 7 and in Year 2.

DH and I alternate work from office and work from home. On the days we work from office we have no fixed time to be home so can work late if needs be.

A WFH day looks like this:
7:30 am pick up and reply to emails from our Asia offices while other parent makes breakfast.
8 am take him to school, at desk by 9.
Leave desk at 5:30 to collect from after school club which finishes at 6. (Or collect early if work that day allows)

We don’t log back on after DS has gone to bed.

Before he went to school he was in nursery 8:30 to 6.

During school holidays we take annual leave to go away as a family and for the rest he goes to holiday clubs, which are not that expensive and cover the whole working day. This is harder before they are about 6 as fewer options available but there are loads as they get older. Holiday club sometimes finishes earlier than school after school club, so we collect him at, say, 3:30 (block out work diary to do that) and he has screen time till we have finished work, or we catch up on work after he’s gone to bed.

Perhaps we are lucky with the after school club running till 6, but a childminder should be able to provide that cover if your school does not. Still much cheaper than a nanny.

We have a cleaner. £15/hour. 3.5 hours a week to clean a 3 bed house. Husband sends his ironing out, I do my own.

Unless you're extremely wealthy everyone has to budget, make sacrifices, and make difficult choices about where and how they spend their money.

Hard work and high wages do not necessarily go hand in hand.

My household income is a little over two thirds of yours, but we don't live in London or anywhere near it so housing is far cheaper.

There's a million and one things I'd like to have: more savings, a nicer house, a better car, more holidays, a bigger family, more time at home. But even with a generous income I still have to make a lot of choices about how and where and why I spend my money and indeed how I earn it.

For example, if I work less I might have more time to do the things I love, but I won't be able to live in the area I want to because it's too pricey.
If I'm getting stressed out by cleaning I can reduce that by having my cleaner do more hours, but that will affect my savings.

Ultimately you need to decide what do you value the most. What's actually important?

If you want to have more money in the bank - people have given you suggestions about where you can make savings.

If you want to see your kids more - people have suggested a 4-day week or WFH or moving.

If you want to be able to be able to be able to better manage your household - people have suggested ways of keeping your home clean with two small kids around.

But your household income and overall wealth is nowhere near the level where you can have shedloads of savings AND a FT nanny AND nursery AND a cleaner AND a husband who doesn't help at home AND do fewer hours AND live in zone 2 etc. We can't always have the things we want - essential though they may seem - despite working incredibly hard.

The people who do have the kind of cash to achieve all of that won't work any harder than you.

The people who work three minimum wage jobs and live in a crappy HMO don't work any less hard than you.

Only you know what you value but you will have to make some difficult choices about your lifestyle, finances, family and work - as does almost every adult in Britain.

I am literally glued to my laptop 9-6

Is that all OP? I thought you said you work hard. You sit down all day.

I left home at 7.30am after having work texts from 6.45am. I had meetings and problems all morning to deal with. On my feet commitments in the afternoon. Squeezed in a wee around 2pm. I left work at 6.30pm, walked in my front door at 7pm.

This was a relatively quiet day. I only did 9500 steps.

My salary is £52k. I'm at the top of my payscale. My take home is £2700pm. I've got 23 years experience at my role. I'm a single parent.

So many of us work really hard. You are making your choices to spend (imo waste) money how you want. Loads of us don't have that option to extravagantly spend like you are, or can choose to live in London a distance away from either yours or your partner's work place. Our choices are limited as our incomes are a quarter or less than yours.

90% of people in this country could sort your "financial problems" with the income you have.

When your youngest starts school can you change the nanny's role to that of nanny/housekeeper? She can do the laundry, ironing, tidying up, prepping dinner etc. something to consider.

Thank you yes definitely something to consider

If she has any professional pride as a nanny she will not be interested in such a change. You might find someone else willing to do that job though.

Can I be nosey and ask where in zone 3? Wouldn't ur eldest child be entitled to 30 free child care?
I'm London based(walthamstow) to be precise. My 2 year old son is entitled to 15 hours free ATM and soon as he reaches 3 he will be getting 30 hours free.
Montly income for myself is £1500 and dh is £2000 a month.
Yes London is expensive but we are comfortable. Although we need to move but iymts just finding a decent place to accommodate a household of 6 at a decent price

We are in Highgate. Eldest is in reception so its free. Young one is entitled but is nursery doesn’t aaccept the full funding, only a reduction in the fees (its double what we pay usually without the funding).

@galwithkids is it a private daycare nursery or a school nursery? School one will be free.
Because seriously - with the nanny you are essentially paying for the same thing twice.

How did you end up living so far from your workplaces? Have you moved jobs since you bought your flat?

To the ones saying that I am ridiculous and unrealistic, I want to say again that I worked VERY hard for almost 15 years to get to where I am at work. I had to endure endless hours of very toxic bosses, harassment, discrimination, working late and weekends, missing out on family weddings, christenings, funerals.. Missing out on being on my father’s deathbed

This is extremely offensive. Are you really so privileged and naive to assume those working for minimum wage aren't dealing with the same and more, but haven't had the same opportunities as you have in education?

These are the luxury choices you've made in your life:

1. choosing to be with a man who thinks housework is beneath him
2. private nursery for a 3yo that state contributions only partially cover
3. a full time nanny on top of paid for nursery (at her rate, she should be educating and socialising your child for 3 hours a day)
4. a nanny you feed
5. a cleaner
6. living in Highgate
7. spending all your free time with your DC
8. paying someone to iron your clothes
9. grocery costs (not a massive luxury realistically given you're somewhat time poor, but could be trimmed)
10. commuting costs for two adults
11. living in London when one adult doesn't even work in London (reverse commuting is a massive luxury)
12. two children
13. choosing to stay with a man who can't afford the lifestyle he wants (two kids, cleaner, nanny, London living, no chores or menial work for him, all his free time free)
14. running and parking a car in London

You're still saving around 15,000 a year, although you haven't priced in holidays or one-off expenses (which tend to come around quite frequently...).

To be constructive, short of obvious luxuries like a personal trainer and a home chef etc etc, you're living a fancy life. Your salary = an ordinary life in London. You're not earning enough to live the way you live and be carefree for the future. The price you're paying is worrying about the future - you could totally keep going like this, as eventually your salaries will go up and your children won't be financially dependent on you. Maybe it's worth it. Only you can decide.

Is it? I live zone 3 Birmingham (never heard of bham zones until I saw it on a train) I live in a 4 bed house and my council tax is £150 band d