MLM Bot Watch 18- chat about Utah based tragicomic cultastic racketeering scamalangadingdongs like Forever Living, Ariix, Herbalife, Younique, Juiceplus etc etc etc

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I still don't get it. Spend £165 on products get £200 bonus. The maths simply don't add up. Somewhere along the line people are buying overpriced/unwanted goods and losing money. Do they have other income streams? Is there essential material that has to be bought?

On face value this seems a totally unsustainable model. I know I sound like a broken record but people are going to lose money so others can get their £750. This one can kind of hide well behind the products though.

It will be interesting to see how long this one lasts because it has loss making (as a company) written all over it.

They don't add up, do they? At least not unless you're prepared to ride roughshod over others in your pursuit of some goal. But Hey - they've done pretty pictures so it must be real. Mustn't it?

I've just looked at their HQ on street map as someone else mentioned earlier - believe me, that's no pretty picture!

Hi Minecrafty, thanks for posting on here, you're very brave coming in here when you know we all disagree with you so we do appreciate it.

The legislation we need to look at is s120(3) of the fair trading act 1973. This provision is a bit wordy but basically states that it is an offence to persuade someone to make a payment by promising benefits from getting others to join a scheme.

You've mentioned the scenario where you were recruited a couple of times so I'm going to use this as an example.

Your uplines had a conversation with you where they persuaded you to make a payment (£35 plus £165 each month) by promising benefits (they showed you their bank statements and explained that you could also make some money) from getting others to join a scheme (you just needed to recruit three people into the scheme and they would also recruit so that you have 3 'legs').

Obviously I wasn't in that conversation so I don't know exactly how it went, but could you explain what those uplines said to you in order to avoid falling foul of this piece of legislation (for example, they might have told you that you also needed to sell some of the food hampers to the general public). Because if the conversation went as I have outlined above, they have committed an offence.

They didn't know they were doing it, they didn't mean to and they thought they were doing a good thing, but if that is how the conversation went then those people have broken the law.

The trouble is, darcey, that 'referrals' and their ilk are usually mentioned just 'in passing'. Pictures of the wampum - in this case - are usually front and forward so that will be what people remember after the event.

To someone like me (a tight Yorkshirewoman) an enthusiastic scratch cook, who buys everything she can on special offer at Costco, then to Lidl and the market for the rest - more than 1p per teabag is a rip off to me - being tied into an expensive price list of boring branded goods like that looks both expensive and depressing.
You get money back? Really? Isn't it cheaper to not pay it out in the first place? It's an illusion - smoke, lights and mirrors. I bet if a family had a clubcard and did the Clubcard bonus deal, then they'd be better off I mean, we all know families who ho on holiday using Clubccard points don't we? It's nothing new.
And Lifetree world will have zero buying power and there will never be any offers. And the same depressing product range. How dull. I find all that mlm spending redirection depressing, whether its having to use aloe toiletries all the bloody time or this.

If it was only ('only' - Huh!) redirection, smiinky, I would be depressed enough. However people actually go into debt and change their lives for the worse because of these organisations.

Going into debt for bottles of Yazoo, how blodody awful is that?

Sorry smiinks to go off track but how have I only just found out you are a fellow Yorkshire woman

I've checked with Eyes about the government department that I think might help with MLMs. He's contacted them, been given more contacts and is now excited. Very excited.

I am NOT from Yorkshire! But I do live in Holland where frugality is a national pastime. I shop in aldi and Lidl and spend about 60% of what I used to when using a main supermarket. But that includes all my meat, fish, poultry, veg and fruit. They have limited ranges but cover all the basics and aldi especially is good quality. I would not be tempted at all by LTW - take away the false hope of "rewards" and it looks like a crappy and quite frankly bizarre and inconvenient shopping experience.

Correction- Eyes is quite pleased by this new contact's common sense approach.

Toobusy LOVE the correction

Now I know that MLM is a bit like capitalism on crystal meth, but anyone else find the dictatorial nature of MLMs like Lifetree have more in common with North Korea? You will consume these products or be damned. Anyone reading Amway will recall how they all dressed the same and had the same car. How long before Forever has a company approved hairstyle list? It's creepy. Capitalist Fundamentalism? Capitalism done in a communist way? China is a capitaliat dictatorship. Perhaps mlms are too, yet they don't realise it?.

But they have brands, Twunk what's not to be impressed by when you see a brand??

I've thought that as well smiinky. I've seen many similarities between the two. Our leader is dear, no one must dissent, the rest of the world is against us, don't trust your family, we are happy happy happy. Cults/ totalitarian regimes/ MLMs. Very similar.

If you find a 'winning' formula??...........

I see the Utah ones as effectively cults masquerading as capitalism

less clear whether I would put LTW in that category though, seems to me more like a straightforward triangular shaped scam .... which has just borrowed some of the marketing ideas and concepts from Amway et al (and borrowed other aspects of the scheme from poundland )

This issue is quite well covered in David Brear's essay 'A common-sense approach to cultism.'

'Totalitarianism itself is enduring, but its camouflage is ephemeral.'

He would like to remind everyone that cults are totalitarian states in microcosm, and that totalitarian states don't just appear out of thin air.

'Amway/MLM' was old fashioned totalitarianism, but originally tailored, and rebranded, to fit the minds of dissatisfied post war Americans ('Amway' started out as 'The American Way Association'), in the same way that 'Bolshevism' (the 'Majority') was exactly the same totalitarian phenomenon, but originally tailored, and rebranded, to fit the minds of dissatisfied late 19th Russian immigrants who dissented from the totalitarian myth that 'the Tsar, and his heirs, were divine.'

The 'Bolsheviks' first infiltrated existing 'Socialist' political movements and took control of them. Their first meetings were held in London Churches and Chapels.

'Amway/MLM' was old fashioned totalitarianism, but originally tailored, and rebranded, to fit the minds of dissatisfied post war Americans ('Amway' started out as 'The American Way Association'), in the same way that 'Bolshevism' (the 'Majority') was exactly the same totalitarian phenomenon, but originally tailored, and rebranded, to fit the minds of dissatisfied late 19th Russian immigrants who dissented from the totalitarian myth that 'the Tsar, and his heirs, were divine.'

The 'Bolsheviks' first infiltrated existing 'Socialist' political movements and took control of them. Their first meetings were held in London Churches and Chapels.

So good you told us twice

Toobusy you sound a bit odd - have you got a cold?

I still don't get it. Spend £165 on products get £200 bonus. The maths simply don't add up

For an SSD (the level where you earn £200), there would be you and 6 others that you've introduced doing a 100PV shop in a month. So that's 7 people doing a 100PV shop on LTW, spending between £165-£250 each on this. That's £700 profit for the company and £200 paid out to the SSD in bonus. The maths (why it's profitable for LTW) is there.

Obviously the 6 people under the SSD won't be earning their £200 yet...but they're just buying their branded shopping on LTW, something they were happy to do before they signed up.

No one is chucking hundreds of quid a month down the drain for nothing, like plenty are suggesting. It's not a huge range but you have over 1000 products to choose from. You're buying standard branded goods, like you would buy anyway, just from somewhere else.

Yesterday I was saying I was going to buy a hamper this month. I spent last night going right through the products and I think i've changed my mind - i'm going to shop individually. Even though i'm not usually an 'all brands' girl, I've realised that there are plenty of things I do only ever buy the branded version of - flash/aquafresh/toilet roll (hate cheap stuff)/fairy/washing powder/ conditioner/ shampoo/ handwash /face cream and loads of others. All of which LTW sells.

For all the 'poor' individuals not yet earning bonus - they're just doing their shopping. Like someone who stops going to Asda and instead chooses to shop with Tesco because they've seen the clubcard advertised...these people (me being one) are choosing to shop with LTW...because they WANT to.

The thing is those not earning a bonus are throwing money away because they're paying over the odds for products. Yes the RRP is the recommended price, but chances are you'll find a product that's cheaper than the RRP (supermarkets undercutting each other) and you will effectively get 50% off from BOGOF offers (which LTW seem to be lacking unless they're hidden under standard products).

Yes every company is out to make a profit, but it's for the thousands (of not more) of shareholders they have, not the 3 shareholders that LTW have.

That shop comparison (as you've already pointed out) is very biased as it seems to have picked the most expensive products from Tesco. For example their 2kg Basmati rice is only £3.29. As you say, at most you may lose £60 at the moment, but could it potentially be more down the line? It all adds up quickly if lots of people are losing out.

And what Smiinky and Motorheadmum said about clubcard etc

I shop at tesco, and buy 90% tesco own brand (mid range or lower). I use the delivery saver plan. (because We live in the middle of nowhere)
My entire shopping costs on average £60 per week for 4 of us (without scrimping or going without and incuding cleaning products/toiletries etc). Last yr I got £120 worth of clubcard vouchers which I had saved. I used the triple boost on them and bought loads of clothes from f&f in the sale for my summer holiday . It was great! I was not obligated to a minimum spend, didnt undergo a personality transplant, or join a mlm and alienate friends and family to do it... we ate well, ALL of our shopping was delivered at a specified time, on a specified day, to our front door! In fact the nice delivery person even carries it into the kitchen for me! 😊 I saved money against branded alternatives (which are usually no better than unbranded) , had total choice over the products I wanted, earned the points which got me all the free clothes and saved myself time and effort.

#WINNING...

I can see no legitimate reason to join this frankly weird scheme or how it would improve my life in any way shape or form? If I am desperate for specific branded products and tesco has them at a high price, I wait until they are on special offer or shop in home bargains (overall cheaper/better value than the pound shop imho)

To me, (my personal 'opinion' only) this just looks from the outside like a run of the mill wholesale operation who want to expand their reach ,with a limited range and average product line without paying salespeople or heavy marketing/stock costs .This is a win win for them (if the margins are as good as they say) and frankly, looks like a lose lose for anyone gullible enough to get involved. Sorry, harsh I know, but its my honest opinion.

one other question, do you know if they stock/warehouse the products? Or is this a dropshipping arrangement where they dont handle the goods at all? Can they ensure that supply is guaranteed on all orders placed? Genuine question.