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'FL / MLM' Thread 3

648 replies

Eyespying · 12/08/2015 08:43

Continuing the valuable discussion of 'Forever Living' and other 'MLM/commercial' cults.

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Eyespying · 25/01/2016 00:12

Ambler21 Even these astonishing videos won't show the full reality.

'MLM' cults are all very much like a disfunctional families. They put on a show for outsiders, but behind closed doors, amongst core'adherents, bullying is widespread.

To core-cult adherents the most outrageous behaviour comes to be seen as quite normal and acceptable.

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Eyespying · 25/01/2016 13:03

Today, an anonymous person has asked me how many people with physical disabilities have been involved with FLP?

I have no means of giving an accurate answer, but the numbers will be significant.

This disturbing video shows a deaf British 'FLP' adherent publicly confessing to having suffered a business failure, and resulting psychological problems, prior to his being recruited.

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Eyespying · 25/01/2016 13:19
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Annie65 · 25/01/2016 14:17

Eye, I was personally disgusted by Fl parading a deaf man on stage like that, with comments that" This proves anyone can do this business". I have deaf parents and I obviously know a lot of deaf people, there is nothing unusual about deaf people being able to do things that people who can hear can. Very patronising. My Sil did not mention this man at all, she knows I would have hit the roof. Angry

Eyespying · 25/01/2016 14:52

Annie65- You are probably aware that the deaf have been a particular target for criminals.

One of the first 'Amway' victims whom I traced in the UK was a blind man from the S. of England who had lost his savings. He confessed to me that he'd been recruited by a friendly blindman he'd met on a group holiday, and that he'd been persuaded to try to recruit the members of a centre for the blind. I took a statement from him and sent him to UK government regulators.

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ClarissaBell · 26/01/2016 10:26

Hello. Have a look over on FB at MrsGloss&TheGoss ... We've given Timeless Vie a little mention this morning

Eyespying · 26/01/2016 12:01

Teddy1970

'...she's in so deep now she couldn't get out now even if she wanted to, plus the fact that all her family are deeply involved as well, there is no one to talk any sense any more in that family, it's actually quite scary how one company can control so many people, the FL bosses have got everyone where they want...for now at least.'

Behind their 'commercial' camouflage, 'MLM cults are essentially totalitarian organizations which control not only their adherents sense of what is true and what is false, but also their sense of what is right and what is wrong.

FLBots are so deluded, that they systematically commit criminal acts, because their twisted minds mistake (what persons with fully-functioning critical faculties would recognise as) evil, for good.

Although he doesn't specifically mention 'commercial' cultism, I think Christopher Hitchens perfectly sums up the self-righteous mindset controlling criminogenic cultic groups like 'FLP.'

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IorekByrnisonsArmour · 26/01/2016 21:59

My Dsis is still in the FLP cult Sad
Before she started in 2014 we were close - but not anymore.

I had hoped she'd washed her hands of the whole thing - I'm so upset and frustrated about the way it changes people.

I miss my lovely Dsis

Eyespying · 26/01/2016 22:06

IorekByrnisonsArmour I'm very sorry to hear that.

I'm sure MN readers would be very interested to hear more details of your story.

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Eyespying · 26/01/2016 23:25

Teddy1970

'...thanks for the links earlier showing how religious fanatics use mind control..how else can you be a shelf stacker in Morrisons one minute and then hacking off heads the next?'

Unlike you, many people refuse to see the glaring similarities between non-violent groups like 'FLP' and ultra violent terrorist groups.

The virtually blind man who calls himself 'Shoko Asahara' ('The great Enlightened One') was once called Chizuo Matsumoto (the Japanese equivalent of John Smith). He is still under sentence of death. For a long time, 'The Great Enlightened One' hid in plain sight and his self-styled 'religious/political' activities were generally considered to be far too absurd, to be dangerous.

In respect of cultism, Japan was the land of the blind, and this one eyed man quite literally tried to usurp power and become Emperor.

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Annie65 · 27/01/2016 08:01

Lore, so sorry, I know what you are going through. My sil joined Fl last April, she has put on fb 2 days ago that she has now finished work, in fact she has been on the sick since before Xmas. Her mentor, who I dislike very much, annouced she was so proud of her and she has "sacked the boss", in big capital letters. Even my Mil, who was against it untill a couple of weeks ago, has changed her mind and was even trying to flog the lip balm to my Husband. Her full time money will finish next month, so I can only wait and see what happens. If ever you need to talk or have a rant we are all here for each other as a shoulder to cry on.Smile

IorekByrnisonsArmour · 27/01/2016 10:00

Thanks Annie and Eye. I've been following the threads on MN for sometime. It's how I've come to understand FLP.

When Dsis first told me about her business and how (only working 10 hrs p/w Hmm) she was going to be earning £1500-2000 p/m I knew there must be something not quite right about it understatement of the year

Annie65 · 27/01/2016 10:16

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Eyespying · 27/01/2016 10:19

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Annie65 · 27/01/2016 10:57

Thanks for the link Spy and the pointers to save time . Well I know when I was in labour the last thing on my mind was work, and I quite like my telly. I am addicted to soaps. Anyway they say you only need 10 to 15 hours spare a week to earn a 6 figure wage, so there should be plenty of time to watch telly.Wink

Eyespying · 27/01/2016 18:28

Jazmine25

The book Toobusytowee is reading, is Prof. Margaret Singer's:

'Cults in Our Midst' (1996).

In this, Prof. Singer set out 'six conditions' in which 'totalistic thought-reform' (popularly known as brainwashing) can be achieved:

1). Keep the person unaware of what is going on and how attempts to psychologically condition him or her are directed in a step-by-step manner.

Potential new members are led, step by step, through a behavioural-change program without being aware of the final agenda or full content of the group. The goal may be to make them deployable agents for the leadership, to get them to buy more courses, or get them to make a deeper commitment, depending on the leader's aim and desires.

2). Control the person's social and/or physical environment; especially control the person's time.
Through various methods, newer members are kept busy and led to think about the group and its content during as much of their waking time as possible.

3). Systematically create a sense of powerlessness in the person.
This is accomplished by getting members away from their normal social support group for a period of time and into an environment where the majority of people are already group members.

The members serve as models of the attitudes and behaviours of the group and speak an in-group language.

Strip members of their main occupation (quit jobs, drop out of school) or source of income or have them turn over their income (or the majority of) to the group.

Once the target is stripped of their usual support network, their confidence in their own perception erodes.

As the target's sense of powerlessness increases, their good judgement and understanding of the world are diminished (ordinary view of reality is destabilized).

As the group attacks the target's previous worldview, it causes the target distress and inner confusion; yet they are not allowed to speak about this confusion or object to it - leadership suppresses questions and counters resistance.

This process is sped up if the targeted individual or individuals are kept tired - the cult will take deliberate actions to keep the target constantly busy.

4). Manipulate a system of rewards, punishments and experiences in such a way as to inhibit behaviour that reflects the person's former social identity.
Manipulation of experiences can be accomplished through various methods of trance induction, including leaders using such techniques as paced speaking patterns, guided imagery, chanting, long prayer sessions or lectures, and lengthy meditation sessions.

The target's old beliefs and patterns of behaviour are defined as irrelevant or evil. Leadership wants these old patterns eliminated, so the member must suppress them.

Members get positive feedback for conforming to the group's beliefs and behaviours and negative feedback for old beliefs and behaviour.

5). The group manipulates a system of rewards, punishments, and experiences in order to promote learning the group's ideology or belief system and group-approved behaviours.
Good behaviour, demonstrating an understanding and acceptance of the group's beliefs, and compliance are rewarded while questioning, expressing doubts or criticizing are met with disapproval, redress and possible rejection. Anyone who asks a question is made to feel there is something inherently disordered about them to be questioning.

The only feedback members get is from the group; they become totally dependent upon the rewards given by those who control the environment.

Members must learn varying amounts of new information about the beliefs of the group and the behaviours expected by the group.

The more complicated and filled with contradictions the new system is and the more difficult it is to learn, the more effective the conversion process will be.

Esteem and affection from peers is very important to new recruits. Approval comes from having the new member's behaviours and thought patterns conform to the models (members). Members' relationship with peers is threatened whenever they fail to learn or display new behaviours. Over time, the easy solution to the insecurity generated by the difficulties of learning the new system is to inhibit any display of doubts—new recruits simply acquiesce, affirm and act as if they do understand and accept the new ideology.

6). Put forth a closed system of logic and an authoritarian structure that permits no feedback and refuses to be modified except by leadership approval or executive order.
The group has a top-down, pyramid structure. The leaders must have verbal ways of never losing.

Members are not allowed to question, criticize or complain. If they do, the leaders allege the member is defective, not the organization or the beliefs.

The targeted individual is treated as always intellectually incorrect or unjust, while conversely the system, its leaders and its beliefs are always automatically, and by default, considered as absolutely just.

Conversion or remolding of the individual member happens in a closed system. As members learn to modify their behaviour in order to be accepted in this closed system, they change—begin to speak the language—which serves to further isolate them from their prior beliefs and behaviours.

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Eyespying · 27/01/2016 20:17

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rayofhope · 27/01/2016 22:06

I've come across Emma, she's in Jayne Leach's direct downline.

That's a very interesting read above eye I think I didn't believe it was a cult, but when you read through all your points, it really is Shock

Eyespying · 27/01/2016 22:21

rayofofhope This is a fascinating subject which very few people have studied deeply and even fewer have written about.

Margaret Singer, who wrote 'Cults in Our Midst,' is certainly the easiest academic author on cultism, to understand.

Margaret was a professor of psychology. During her career, she interviewed more than 5000 people who had been in groups which she deemed to be cults, because of the tell-tale characteristics they exhibited. Although most of these groups hid behind 'religious' fronts, some were quite novel, including 'body-building' cults.

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ClarissaBell · 28/01/2016 21:45

What do we know about Tropic? It's been discussed in MrsGloss&TheGoss in FB this evening and they certainly look like a MLM company . Vegan skincare ..

Eyespying · 28/01/2016 22:02

ClarissaBell

This linked-article should tell you what you need to know.

mlmtheamericandreammadenightmare.blogspot.fr/2015/11/alan-sugars-tropic-skin-care-very.html

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Eyespying · 28/01/2016 22:14

This article might interest some MN members.

www.bbc.com/future/story/20160127-the-conman-who-pulled-off-historys-most-audacious-scam

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Eyespying · 29/01/2016 17:11

In view of what has been going on today on the other thread, MN members should remember that the leaders of the most-destructive cults have ultimately become megalomaniacal psychopaths (i.e. suffering from a chronic mental disorder, especially when resulting in paranoid delusions of grandeur and self-righteousness, and the compulsion to pursue grandiose objectives). The unconditional deference of their deluded adherents only served to confirm, and magnify, the leaders’ own paranoid delusions. This type of cult leader will seek to maintain an absolute monopoly of information whilst perpetrating, and/or directing, evermore heinous crimes. They will sustain their activities by the imposition of arbitrary contracts and codes (secrecy, denunciation, confession, justice, punishment, etc.) within their groups, and by the use of humiliation, and/or intimidation, and/or calumny, and/or malicious prosecution (where they pose as victims), and/or sophism, and/or the infiltration of traditional culture, and/or corruption, and/or intelligence gathering and blackmail, and/or extortion, and/or physical isolation, and/or violence, and/or assassination, etc., to repress any internal or external dissent.

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Gimlet1984 · 30/01/2016 14:15

Adding this link here as well because it suggests a serious problem of former police officers being recruited to these mlm schemes. Nicki McLellan was a police officer for metropolitan police for 18 years rising to the rank of sergeant. She had been targeting vulnerable mothers living on the breadline and abusing her position of senior receptionist after she boasted of selling unproven natural remedies to patients behind GPs' backs.

"Anybody you know is a potential customer," she said.

www.courier.co.uk/Saleswoman-targeted-doctors-patients-poor-exposed/story-16642398-detail/story.html

Eyespying · 30/01/2016 14:34

Gimlet984 Thanks. 'MLM' racketeering has been rife in the UK police for many years. Thousands of officers have been involved.

In France, I've actually met an retired senior Gendarme (socially) whose son-in-law told me that he was once an 'MLM' recruiter for the French 'Amway' spin-off 'GEPM.' This loud-mouth still insisted that 'GEPM' was deliberately wrecked by a bunch of losers who wouldn't accept that failure was their own fault and who cried fraud to the left-wing press and the authorities.

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