'FL / MLM' Thread 3

[Eyespying]

Continuing the valuable discussion of 'Forever Living' and other 'MLM/commercial' cults.

GrimDamnFanjo Prior to some of them getting jailed for perpetrating, and hiding, one of the biggest frauds in US corporate history, the 'Enron' racketeers briefly ran a so-called 'MLM income opportunity' in California in conjunction with the 'Amway' racketeers. Adherents signed up as 'distributors of energy products and services.' They were taught that they could earn money via the regular buying of energy roducts and services and by recruiting others to do the same, etc. ad infinitum. In order to pull more players into this crackpot game, the racketeers withheld all key-information regarding the actual results of it.

Without further investigation, 'Utility Warehouse' looks very much like the 'Enron MLM' and I wouldn't advise anyone to get involved.

I wonder if there are any studies in to the type of personal who will pursue this type of opportunity? It seems to me that most fall in to either a vulnerable category or they are incredibly narcissistic.

I also wonder what happens if/when it doesn't work out and the impact that has on them psychologically, let alone financially.

I have read that the average FL rep forks out £1300+ making back around £300-400 (over 5 months - the average time it takes realises it's a scam and cuts their losses, I assume). This statistic seems pass by those looking in to the business, that or they genuinely believe they're one of the 1% who can do well from this.

At this stage, entering such a pyramid scheme business is financial suicide. Those who can achieve the vast wealth have only done so because they were there at the start and could reach those heights.

These fictitious "six figure" earnings, white audis (on finance) and groups of women pretending they're BFFs when they met only 3 weeks ago over a cheap looking power point and bottle of Buck's Fizz, all delivered to them by a women who has been in the business for as little as 6 months and now classes herself as a mentor/coach honestly nauseate me to my core.

They're only learning how to push, not sell. Push their ghastly snake oil on to anyone who's daft enough to buy it (me included, since buying was the only way to shut them up!)

The psychology of it all genuinely fascinates me. I wonder how many friendships, relationships and marriages have ended simply thanks to MLM.

That's interesting Patzy.

Where did you get the £800 loss and average of 5 months before dropping out?

Someone threads ago suggested that teachers, nhs workers and police were susceptible because they were used to rules and more likely to believe.

It was on a UK website discussing whether or not it was a scam, can't for the life of me remember exactly which one. Someone had commented with the statistics who had been part of it for 2 years (and had lost a lot more than £800) begging people not to fall in to the trap.

Also similar losses reported here (US site). davidjwbailey.com/2014/07/04/forever_living_scam/

Patzy and Siwi - Over the years, Robert FitzPatrick, Douglas Brooks, Bruce Craig and their associates have collected more accurate data than anyone, concerning 'payments' in numerous 'MLM' rackets. The overwhelming majority of 'MLM' participants actually have received no payments whatsoever.

The first reliable study of a large and complete group of 'MLM' adherents took place in the State of Wisconsin, where Assistant State Attorney, Bruce Craig, seized the tax records of more than 20 000 'Amway' adherents. The top I% were making an average annual net-loss of approximately $900 (after deducting operating expenses) each. The majority had recivieved no payments whatsoever.

The psychological profile for persons who have persisted in ''MLM cults. - In my experience, they were disatisfied, and/or alienated persons (not necessarily severely narcisistic), who were completely convinced that they could never be fooled and, consequently, their own egoes would not allow them to accept the truth.

In the end, chronic 'MLM' participation becomes very much like a chronic gambling addiction, although I once coined the term 'Financial Anorexia.'

'MLM' addicts will beg, steal or borrow to continue, and they completely ignore the fact that they are starving themselves to death financially, whikst causing geat suffering to persons around them.

'The most powerful weapon in the hands of the oppressor is the mind of the oppressed.'

pyramidschemealert.org/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2014/03/The-Pyramid-Scheme-Industry-FINAL.pdf

While I think it is an addiction I can't help but think that most do it to save face, they've spent so long bigging themselves up to anyone and everyone who will listen that when it turns out that they've made less than minimum wage or even a loss at the end of the month, they pump money in themselves to make it look like it is successfully viable.

Also, since most people who undertake this have very little money, how in the world do they afford to fill their homes with these products (company policy!) The cost is laughable!

Patzy85 - Not everyone who has fallen victim to 'MLM' rackets has been poor. There are now 'MLM' rackets specifically designed to attract the middle classes. In the UK, at least one member of the House of Lords has been an adherent and I have evidence that some wealthy business owners in the UK from enthnic minority communities, have bought their way into 'FLP,' because it's like buying a form of instant celebrity and social acceptance.

In recent years, micro-finance institutions (like Grameen Bank) have been doling out loans in developed, and developing, countries to a significant number of destitute persons who took these funds and entered 'MLM' rackets. In many cases, these loans have ultimately been honoured by the friends and relatives of the 'MLM' victims. 'MLM' racketeers have actually taught victims how to acquire micro finance loans

In the USA, Grameen was lending $1500 per client without any quarms as to the viability of 'MLM.' Certain Grameen staff began to express their concerns, particularly about 'Herbalife', but the organization itself has remained completely silent on the matter. Ironically, a big supporter of Grameen has been Warren Buffett, and Buffett's public company Berkshire Hathaway has owned a private 'MLM' company , 'The Pampered Chef.'

Micro-finace institutions in their current unaccountable (lets trust everyone) form, could almost have been invented by 'MLM' racketeers, because they have supplied capital to countless 'MLM' victims who would never have been able to have participated in the past. Because micro-finance capital has come from donations of wealthy individuals and institutions, and not from depositors, they have not been classified as banks or subject to the same external auditing procedures as banks (particularly in the USA).

Brilliant!

Craig Morgan has just posted this comment on Google+

Hi mumsnet
I was part of Flp for six years
Yes you can get Managers a team profit share car plan travel to the aloe fields in the USA met the CEO
But at what cost
Your home
Your business
Friends
Your money
The business is a scam
They buy positions
False sign up people
Put products under them
To gain false levels in the business
The lies
Seen it first hand
I know loads more names record the dirt on forever
And I'm not hiding
Regards to you all
Craig Morgan
A forever victim
One of many

Poor Craig. Hope his info helps others though.

Is there a link to the Google+ page?

Very brave of Craig to come forward, he should be applauded. In sharing his story let's hope more people can be saved from this evil company.

Hats off to Craig. It sounds like you have been to hell and back. Well done for getting the courage to speak out.

The psychology is fascinating. (I was religious once and you could not have persuaded me it was not real. So I have some sympathy with those sucked in). Once you believe, and have made sacrifices for that belief, its hard to quit. Then there's the tribal hook, love bombing, community and leaders. How can you abandon that? Then give people with money worries the illusion of wealth and you have a potent cocktail. (Lets not start on the FL mommy guilt trip either grrr!)
Its also hard for people who have not been lied to before, to understand they are being scammed.

Upthread someone (eyespying?) mentioned the Madoff Ponzi and its victims. I tend to put "victims" in inverted commas. here. Yes, they were betrayed but the whole Madoff thang was iffy from the outset: he reported 10% annual compound growth, that 10% rain or shine or whatever the market did. Those who invested with him must have felt they were a special group with inner knowledge not permitted to the rest of us, (who would get 3% if lucky.) That's also what happened to Barings I think. If its too good to be true it probably is :)

xenu1 Many years ago, I kept bumping into a guy called Harvey Michael Ross, who ran a 'gold investment' fraud out of a smart office in the city of Leeds. He was playing the big hitter at the races, restaurants, clubs, etc., complete with cigars, champagne, flash cars and distracting girlfrends on his arm. Ross pretended that if you bought Gold coins from him, in 12 months, he would buy them back for a fixed profit, no matter what the market price of gold did.

taxfreegold.co.uk/harveyross.html

Ross made the mistake of laundering money for criminals, some of whom came from travelling communities. Eventually, when Ross was unable to pay out his victims, the travellers sent him a coffin with his name on it, and Ross ran away to S. America. No one in the legitimate business community in Yorkshire had money invested with Ross, because everyone knew he was a crook.

Ross could have been put away at almost any stage of his criminal career. Just a morning's investigation combined with common-sense, would have established the truth

Bernie Madoff was a lifeguard: turned economic alchemist. Virtually everyone on Wall St. knew he was a crook, that's why virtually no one on Wall St. had money invested with him. Madoff could have been put away at almost any stage of his criminal career. Just a morning's investigation combined with common-sense, would have established the truth

It must have taken Craig a lot of courage to come forward. That's very commendable. I hope his life is nearly back to normal now.

corporatefraudswatch.blogspot.fr/

seekingalpha.com/article/3816976-herbalife-goodbye?page=2

You're conditioned to believe it's not a pyramid scheme, but yet you're also taught the big money is made in recruiting and not retailing.

She she says there are no targets but there are! If you want to be paid on your down line you must do a minimum of 4cc (1cc is £159 wholesale) or recruit (each recruit gets you 2cc's)

Pour the higher up you go in the plan, the more complicated it gets to be paid on your team.

Ask her what level she is and how much she is making? I bet she won't give you a straight answer

Frostycake -Many Thanks for the info and welcome. The more informed-witnesses to this extraordinary phenomenon: the better.

Changing the name over the entrance to the 'MLM' trap, is a classic tactic.

For a long time I've been saying that it's got to the stage where it's become almost pointless to challenge 'MLM' rackets individually, because as soon as one company gets exposed as a fraud, a dozen more names have apppeared.

Can I ask, have you visited my Blog?

mlmtheamericandreammadenightmare.blogspot.fr/2013/02/forever-living-products-flp-is-mlm.html