Meet the Other Phone. A phone that grows with your child.

Meet the Other Phone.
A phone that grows with your child.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Money matters

Find financial and money-saving discussions including debt and pension chat on our Money forum. If you're looking for ways to make your money to go further, sign up to our Moneysaver emails here.

'FL / MLM' Thread 3

648 replies

Eyespying · 12/08/2015 08:43

Continuing the valuable discussion of 'Forever Living' and other 'MLM/commercial' cults.

OP posts:
Eyespying · 17/01/2016 17:41

Annie65- Your in-laws will almost certainly be unaware that aloe vera has been used by other 'Mormon' Charlatans who have peddled the belief that aloe vera has miraculous 'God-given' powers.

Yesterday, I posted a facebook link on the other thread which takes you to a video featuring one of the (once famous) Osmond Brothers, introducing persons claiming that aloe vera has cured them of everything from AIDS to cancer.

www.facebook.com/167080486676026/videos/193146524050726/

The Internet has been alive with similar, potentially lethal, aloe vera miraculous cure propaganda. This cannot be directly linked to the 'FLP' racket, but it has been used to deceive 'FLP' adherents.

www.youtube.com/results?search_query=aloe+vera+cancer+cure

OP posts:
Annie65 · 17/01/2016 17:42

I dont think they know about that. I was telling my mil about the Ec situation with the "castle", as my sil had mentioned this to my Husband when he was visiting, I was not there or I would have told her about the renting situation. I did think about your situation and how familiar it was. I have told mil how much they are expected to pay out on books etc, how its all about recruitment not selling. She actually spoke to me first about her concerns with fl, and was quite verbal about it, that is why Im quite taken back with the sudden turnaround. I really feel like telling my sil everything her mum said about her, but I wont, Im not like that. I shall be keeping away though for a bit as I dont feel comfortable with them at the moment. Its a shame, but they have to find out for themselves I think. I thought about Eric from "merchants of deception", it took him 10 years and a lot of money to realise the truth though I hope it doesnt take that long.

Eyespying · 17/01/2016 17:51

Annie65 As you know, I'm currently trying to put together an article containing the confession of (a named) major 'FLP' whistleblower.

This guy only found out how much his ex-wife had thrown away in 'FLP' when they divorced and he, his lawyers and a judge, got finally access to the truth.

Hopefully, this new article will open the eyes of people like your in-laws, because behind the Emma Cooper fairy story will be essentially the same explanation.

OP posts:
Annie65 · 17/01/2016 17:54

I shall watch these videos later spy, I could also show them to the inlaws when I next see them. At the moment though Im not in the right frame of mind Im afraid. My sil is acting very stange, being the perfect Mother, looking down her nose at my Grandsons because they are noisey, they are 4 and 2, and I know its because of Fl and everything has to be seen as being perfect, even her children, so everything that is still "normal" like a 4 and 2 year old running around playing is not perfect. It really has annoyed me because my mil was acting the same way. I think our family will be split into two and it is out of my hands at the moment.

Annie65 · 17/01/2016 17:59

I cant wait to read your article and I shall keep hold of all the evidence I come across for future reference. It will all come to a head eventually. How much damage it will cause in the meantime I dont know. It is really good for me to be able to talk to people like yourself as you all can relate and I thank you.Smile

Eyespying · 17/01/2016 18:07

Annie65 - The 'God' aspect of aloe vera, snake-oil selling, might give many British 'FLP' adherents pause for thought.

'Amway' was of course rife with references to God giving MLM to the founders of the company, but my relatives simply dismissed this whacky 'religious' aspect and said that 'Amway' was only 'Christian-inspired.'

With my relatives, even when I supplied them with videoed interviews featuring 'Amway' victims in the UK who had lost up to £40 000, they still refused to accept that 'Amway' was a scam. Instead, I was told that anyone complaining about losing money in 'Amway' was just a 'negative loser' who refused to accept responsibility for their own failings.

OP posts:
darceybussell · 17/01/2016 18:25

Eyes, do you have an idea of how much money your family lost in Amway?

(Obviously there was also the loss of friends and family members etc.)

Annie65 · 17/01/2016 18:46

Spy I have a feeling thats all the response I will have, even if I do show them evidence. It is down to them now Im afraid. Bloody pyrimid schemes, they have a lot to answer for. Angry

Eyespying · 17/01/2016 19:28

darceybussell - Judging by what I saw in my mother's home, my brother had many thousands of pounds committed to the brainwashing materials, and he was supplying these to his group, but he can never have made a profit out of them. He went to all the meetings, but I don't think he ever travelled abroad. He bought business suits and ties, 'Amway' stationary, folders, diaries, etc., and also bought a large black 4X4 (but only secondhand). My brother's partner also bought a new image as well as a makeup sales-kit (which was the thick end of £1000).

It's very difficult to say how much my brother, partner and my mother poured in total, into living the 'Amway' lie. My brother claimed to be turning over £100 000 annually in his 'business,' but this was the total ammount his group was handing over to 'Amway UK' for the wampum products. From what I personally saw and know today, I would guess my brother wasted well above £100 000, but possibly a great deal more. Even today, I don't know how long he paid to play the 'MLM' game of make-believe.

By far the worst damage my brother caused was whe he handed all confidential information about his family to his handlers, and they will have supplied him with a stategy, and the false justification, to take control of his family's capital assets.

When I was pushed out for initially refusing to join 'Amway', my brother sudenly had de facto control over capital assets worth in excess of one million pounds sterling, but he never progressed very far in the 'Amway' hierarchy. My brother used his control of my family's wealth to manipulate me into a position of dependence so that he could force me to join 'Amway', but I still refused.

When my brother moved into my mother's home, he gave up his job as a teacher, but his partner (another teacher) continued to work. He also rented out his own little house to his partner's brother. I think my brother recruited several of his partner's family. He probably was financing their own 'Amway' lies. Even without his salary, my brother had access to a substantial income, because was living for nothing whilst his partner, and my mother, were subsidising what they firmly believed would be a 'business' that would make all of them fabulously wealthy. My mother had state and private pensions, she also had rents from appartments she owned, and plenty of cash, and valuables; stashed away from inheritances.

My mother corresponds very much the whistleblower whom I am currently interviewing, except that my mother never faced the truth and would never have been able to understand. She died of heart failure 3 years before 'Amway' faced investigation in the UK. I have not had direct contact with my brother since the mid 1990s. In order for him to face the truth, he would first have to admit that he was defrauded, but he then he would have to face the fact that he defrauded his own mother and brother as well as his ex-partner and her family, not to mention a number of his friends.

OP posts:
Eyespying · 17/01/2016 19:35

darceybussell It is quite literally impossible to calculate the damage, (financial and emotional) that the MLM fairy story has caused to me and to my family and friends. Short of hitting my brother on the head with a heavy object, their was nothing that I could do, at the time, to stop him.

OP posts:
rayofhope · 17/01/2016 21:47

Eye were you ever tempted to join when he first approached you or were you wary from the start? Had you heard of Amway before your brother got into it?

Gimlet1984 · 17/01/2016 21:51

My friend did the body by vi for a period of time so I'm glad to see its collapsing. Can only hope Herbalife and Forever Living follow suit and the law changes to prevent these mlms from operating.

ethanvanderbuilt.com/2016/01/16/the-visalus-scam-continues-to-collapse/

Eyespying · 17/01/2016 22:21

rayofhope - To be honest, I thought my brother was having a joke when he initially tried to recruit me, but he never mentioned 'Amway' at first. He just said he was 'networking' and that he was involved with lawyers and financial consultants, building 'networks of idependent business owners.' He also let it slip that there was 'no need to sell anything,' and that 'selling was for people who weren't serious about making big money.' When I realised that he was seriously trying to recruit me, I told him and his girlfriend ( in very direct language) that they were obviously involved with a stupid pyramid scheme hidden behind a load of American-sounding 'business' bullshit, an that they were out of their minds to imagaine I would ever join.

'Amway' was first mentioned many weeks by my mother, but I had never heard of it or of 'MLM.' She lamely insisted 'Amway' was 'the world's largest private company' and 'MLM, the business for the 21st century,' and that I was 'completely mistaken to think it was a pyramid scheme.'

OP posts:
OP posts:
Eyespying · 18/01/2016 08:28

'ACN' is a particularly sinister US-based 'MLM' cultic racket which, until very recently, was fronted by Donald Trump. It's bosses have targeted young European Muslims.

MPs are currently debating whether or not to ban Mr. Trump from entering the UK, but they, and the media, evidently remain blissfully unaware that he's been paid $millions to promote an 'MLM' cultic racket. Mr. Trump is a world-class liar who has been the beneficiary of a mass-fraud perpetrated against countless fellow Americans and against a growing number of UK citizens. The idea that he might enter the White House, is both laughable and frightening.

www.bbc.com/news/video_and_audio/headlines/35327565

OP posts:
GrimDamnFanjo · 18/01/2016 09:15

Just wondering about Utility Warehouse? I see lots of conflicting information on the net. Some say it's a genuine way to discount, others that it's not really true.

Eyespying · 18/01/2016 10:07

GrimDamnFanjo - I'm sure you know that behind 'Utility Warehouse' has been 'Telecom Plus' (a publicly-traded company).

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Telecom_Plus

Some of the key-information which the bosses of these corporate structures have not made available to the public, and to regulators, concerns the overall number of persons who have signed up for their so-called 'MLM' scheme and the number of contractees (arbitrarily defined in their take-it or-leave-it annual contracts as 'distributors') who have remained active for more than one year, two years, three years, etc., and who have actually received an overall net-profit from their non-salaried 'sales' activity.

Remember, it's not just lying to people to take their money which is defined as fraud in the UK, it's also the witholding key-information from them.

Some people like me, would say that when examining any suspected scam 'income oppportunity,' one must only examine the quantifiable evidence.

OP posts:
Eyespying · 18/01/2016 11:53

Patzy85- You asked me 'How can they claim to help people, who do they really think that they are helping?! If they want to help people they could suggest other products from high street places that would cost them faaaaaar less.'

'MLM' core-adherents truly believe that they are helping themselves and everyone whom they recruit, even though all the quantifiable evidence demonstrates that their destructive behaviour is contrary to basic common-sense.

'MLM' adherents have been subjected to co-ordinated devious techniques of social, psychological and physical persuaion without their fully-informed consent. In popular terms, they have been brainwashed. They have been conditioned to exclude all multi-dimensional, quantifiable evidence, and all free-thinking persons, challenging their groups' two dimensional 'negative vs positive' controlling scenarios.

mlmtheamericandreammadenightmare.blogspot.fr/2015/06/forever-living-products-flp-cult-secte.html

OP posts:
Eyespying · 18/01/2016 12:07

Patzy85 You have seen with your own eyes that 'MLM' wampum products are effectively-unsaleble on the open-market to members of the general public with fully-functioning critical and evaluative faculties.

'MLM' adherents have been taught to believe that if they duplicate a 'step-by-step plan,' and buy a fixed quota of the products each month and recruit others to duplicate the same 'plan,' eventually they will achieve 'total financial freedom.'

'MLM' adherents are actually handing over their time and cash each money in an unlawful, and economically unviable, closed-market swindle, aka pyramid scheme. Over the decades, billions of dollars of unlawful losing investment payments have been laundered by the bosses of hundreds of 'MLM' rackets, simply by gving endless chains of ill-informed victims effectively-unsaleable wampum products, and services, in return.

Due to it global scale and largely-unopposed infiltration of traditional culture, I consider 'MLM income opportunity' cultic racketeering to be one of the most significant, and profitable, criminogenic phenomena since WWII.

OP posts:
xenu1 · 18/01/2016 12:34

eyes "My mother (a supporter of Margaret Thatcher) couldn't believe that 'Amway' - a company which had had Conservative Ministers speaking at its events in the UK- could be a fraud. Ironically, one of these speakers was Lord Archer (before he got jailed for lying and perverting justice)."

As did Lord (Norman) Lamont. In fairness to the politicians what happens is that organisations donate/support and someone comes along to do a stump/thanks speech at a dinner. The politicians who spoke at Amway functions would have been cheered to the echo, and seen a room full of enthusiastic attendees who were all enjoying themselves and would have laughed at anyone who suggested they were involved in a scam... Plus ca change!

Patzy85 · 18/01/2016 13:02

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

Eyespying · 18/01/2016 16:07

Xenu1 -

www.dsa.org/nonindexed/congresskit/index.html

Bill Clinton and Tony Blair, and various other politicians, have all got caught by 'Direct Selling Associations.'

As UK Prime Miniter, Tony Blair made an outrageous 'MLM' propaganda video in 1997 which quoted misleading stats from the 'UKDSA.' I don't know what he, or his party, got in return. To his credit, Blair did answer some of my questions via my family's MP, but not fully.

Normon Lamont was actually a key-note speaker at major 'Amway' rallies in the UK. His fees were paid with stolen money, yet Lamont never even acknowledged letters which I sent to him explaining what he was really involved in. It's difficult to believe that this arrogant clown was once responsible for British economic policy. That said, his 'Amway' speeches were just a general worship of ' Thatcherism ( i.e. rehashed Milton Friedman). As far as I'm aware, Lamont did not refer specifically to the 'Amway' racket.

Confession, back in the 1990s, I actually managed to retrieve a list of about 40 British celebrities from an ex 'Amway' shill. These were all persons whom the bosses of the 'IBS network' wished to appear as speakers at the major events. They were stalked just like potential 'MLM' recruits, but, like Norman Lamont, most of them could be hired from public speaking agencies.

One of the celebs was Prof. Laurie Taylor who presented the Radio 4 programme, 'Thinking Allowed.'

Prof. Taylor actually interviewed someone from 'Amway' on his show, and he then broadcast a weird training tape (without explanation) entitled 'The Parable of the Little Pony.' Sadly, I no longer have a recording of this kitsch tripe. It was possibly the weirdest tape of all time, on which the speaker told of how a poor little girl was overcome with tears of joy when she got a pony for Xmas from her (transformed) 'Amway distributor' dad. The speaker then burst into floods of tears, sobbing that the father was himself.

I called Prof. Taylor to warn him he was being stalked by a cult, but he'd already worked this out after visiting the 'IBS' HQ in Somerset. He'd refused to appear as an event speaker. Although Laurie Taylor was quite alarmed by what I told him, he never said anything publicly.

OP posts:
Eyespying · 18/01/2016 16:20

Patzy85 'MLM' cult adherents form a vast intelligence gathering machine. They are tricked into writing detailed profiles of themselves and their potential recruits. This information is then handed to 'Upline' so that the best strategy can be formed to ensnare the weakest individuals and relieve them of as much cash as possible.

On the pretext that Upline is there to help and advise their Downline how to become a success, Gung-ho MLM adherents are encouraged tell their handlers everything about themselves their friends and family members.

Juicey information about illness, capital assets, sexual indiscretions, crimes which adherents and their families might have committed, can always be used to manipulate defraud and/or blackmail adherents.

OP posts:
Eyespying · 18/01/2016 16:46

Patzty85 Notice also how money and key-information only flows in one direction in all 'MLM' cults - upwards

OP posts:
GrimDamnFanjo · 18/01/2016 16:57

Thanks for that info. I came across the UW people at business breakfast type events. Then a friend joined up. I was going to go with her deals but then I did a Google and came across a thread on I think Money Saving Expert? I can't remember the details but I think it implied they manipulated figures to portray themselves as the market leaders?