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I've been sucked into forever living!! Why do I feel like the bad guy?

999 replies

KindergartenKop · 03/06/2015 20:27

Recently an acquaintance emailed me to ask if I could 'help' her by trying a few products and giving her some feedback. Being the nice person I am I agreed. When the bag of samples turned up the penny dropped and i realised that she's trying to sell them to me (I'm naive I know!). I thought id just buy a little bubble bath. Its fucking 14 quid! No way. I'm sending the bag back and pleading eczema. Does this whole company operate by guilting friends and family into purchasing crap quality at ridic prices?

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Pepperonipeteczar · 30/06/2015 06:59

I saw someone post an "inspirational seller" who had acheived amazing things with Forever, she was allegedly earning 37k A MONTH! down tools people we are all in the wrong jobs, 37k a month is there for anyone who wants it and who doesn't want 37k a MONTH!

Jesus wept

KenDoddsDadsDog · 30/06/2015 07:05

Mine has just posted a picture of Danny Dyer drinking Aloe Gel ! Can't wait to stock up myself so I turn into a twat Grin

Tokelau · 30/06/2015 08:48

Are Stella and Dot an MLM?

They are being advertised on mumsnet jobs, offering £100 to £15000 a month.

xenu1 · 30/06/2015 08:53

Eyespying, thanks again for the links. I appreciated your comparison of MLM to "gifting" scams, new to me!

It would have been better perhaps for you to volunteer that you were the author of these sites?

I still feel uncomfortable with the Nazi comparisons, Freemasonry and the like. We are in conspiracy-territory here and, with respect, you come across as obsessed. Maybe your personal family history affects this?

Amway is just a scam and Dexter Yager (big Amway pin) is no Nazi, or even a Freemason. He's a Xtian-fundi conman.

One of the very first anti-MLM sites is Sidney Schwartz' "Amway, the untold story". From the start of the net in the '90s. Mirrors around, Dave Touretsky's anticult links are great

www.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/Amway/index.html

www.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/Amway/AUS/

There's no need for extreme comparisons? (And please keep up the excellent work, of course?)

Eyespying · 30/06/2015 09:28

I have recently been contacted via my Blog by a woman in the UK who says that the latest generation of 'MLM inspirational' videos, like the one linked here...

...transformed her sister's ex-partner into 'a lunatic living in a comic book dream world.' She says that he was instructed by his 'business mentor' to spend entire nights watching these videos over and over again, to a point where she believed him to have 'hypnotised himself.'

This contact did not disclose which 'MLM' racket her sister's ex-partner is/was involved with, but I suspect 'FLP.'

throwingpebbles · 30/06/2015 10:12

Someone posted earlier in the thread saying that stella and dot are an MLM...

eyespying I agree with xenu you have posted some fascinating stuff but the more obsessive/extreme elements of your posts actually undermine the point you are trying to make, particularly as it is hard to confirm the veracity of your claims

This thread has been most interesting when it has been about real life examples of how MLMs have affected people's lives.

I would love to see more media scrutiny of the behaviour of these companies, and I would love to see a practical campaign highlighting the risks of getting involved and making people aware of things to think about before signing up. Especially as I think stay at home mums seem to be a big Target group...

(I got targeted for the first time within days of announcing my pregnancy!)

Eyespying · 30/06/2015 11:28

Xenu1

'I still feel uncomfortable with the Nazi comparisons, Freemasonry and the like. We are in conspiracy-territory here and, with respect, you come across as obsessed. Maybe your personal family history affects this?'

__

Ah, so I take it we've now moved out of 'Godwin's Law territory' which you previously accused me of occupying.

To be perfectly honest, I'm not interested in your comfort or in your opinions. What I am interested in, however, is the truth, and the truth about cultism has a tendency to make many people feel very uncomfortable, because it challenges their ego-protecting model of reality. Indeed, your comment only confirms my overall analysis.

You write 'with respect?' Yet I detect little respect in your comment. I'm only politely inviting my readers to think, but you are impolitely refusing to make the effort.

The central point which I have been making, but which you (and many other casual observers of cults) have completely failed to grasp, is that the arbitrary mystifying names which are always hung over the entrances to cults, are largely a distraction. Once you know the universal formula for how all cults are instigated, it's not difficult to understand that you can hide the phenomenon behind almost any reality-inverting camouflage. Cults and cult instigators behave like chameleons, and history proves that they are at their most dangerous when their camouflage has been perfectly tailored to fit the spirit of the age.

Self-evidently, you are not putting forward an evidence-based argument. You are just offering a blanket dissmissal of my evidence-based, deconstructed analysis, and trivializing my intellectually-rigorous approach as 'obsession.' I could easily dissmiss your less than rigorous approach as ignorance and mental laziness, but I'm far too polite to do that. Thus, call me obsessed, but I'm still politely making the effort to try to get you look beyond the end of your nose and think.

The fact remains that tens of millions of people around the world continue to be churned through 'MLM income opportunity' rackets each year, leaving their cash behind them. Virtually none of them will ever complain, because they haven't the slightest idea what they were actually involved in. Like all cults, 'MLM' rackets have been designed to be beyond ordinary human understanding.

Due to its global scale, the increasing number of groups involved, the staggering ammount of cash their bosses have stolen, its infiltation of traditional culture and capacity to survive all low level investigations (and legal and media) challenges, I have described so-called 'MLM' as being one of the most alarming developments of the cult phenomenon since the demise of the so-called 'Third Reich.'

Obviously, far from being a crackpot conspiracy theory, groups like 'FLP' and 'Amway' convert their adherents to believe in a form a conspiracy theory, where anyone challenging the authenticity their closed-logic 'us vs them' fictitious controlling scenarios, is systematically dehumanized and excluded by the scenario.

Talking of conspiracy theories, I happen to have access to 'Amway' brainwashing tapes (sold by the Yager organization to high level initiates), where persons such as my myself are openly condemned as being the 'evil agents of Satan.' At one time, a leading 'Amway' propagandist posted a description of 'the internet war against Amway being prosecuted by the members of an anti-capitalist cult.' Myself and Robert FitzPatrick were, thus, listed as 'cult members.'

Again, I'm not making inappropriate or glib comparisons, I'm describing in accurate deconstructed terms the internal totalitarian structures, and fictitious controlling scenarios, of organizations like 'FLP' and 'Amway,' and calmly explaining that these groups are unoriginal perversions of traditional fraternal secret societies and religions, but presented externally as 'businesses' in order to fit the spirit of the times.

To say that 'Amway is just a scam,' is patently wrong. It is my considered opinion that MLM is part of a widely-misunderstood, ongoing, criminogenic phenomenon which poses threat to democracy and the rule of law.

I would suggest that you also take a long hard look at the perverted fraternal secret society known as the 'Second Ku Klux Klan,' which counted around 6 millions adherents during the 1920s. During this, period the KKK was lawfully-registered in the USA, and various other countries, as a labyrinth of privately-owned limited liability commercial companies. The guy who instigated the '2nd KKK' was exactly like Dexter Yager - a con artist, but Yager didn't instigate 'Amway'.

By the way, at one time in the 1990s, I was in regular contact with Sydney Schwartz. He was being sued for saying that 'Amway' was cultic. At that time, 'Amway' threatened Sydney with a list of 'experts' who were apparently all going to turn up in court and swear that 'Amway' wasn't a cult.? One of these coopted 'experts' was the corrupt British director of a 'cult advice' charity who'd secretly been on 'Amway' payroll for years. After a 1993 UK magazine article began to expose 'Amway' as a cult, this guy, Graham Baldwin, and his partner in crime, Ian Howarth, managed to round up a significant group of victims in the UK and prevent them from complaining by negotiating compensation deals.

Eyespying · 30/06/2015 11:54

I feel I should perhaps clarify the above comment about Sydney Schwartz.

Sydney got threatened by 'Amway' for accepting a small ammount of money (I believe it was $1000) to advise attorneys working for 'Procter and Gamble' during the notorious series of lawsuits involving 'Amway' and P&G.

Sydney's website was put forward by P&G attorneys as proof that 'Amway' was cultic.

These lawsuits in which P& G and 'Amway' sued and countered one another for several years, centred on a false rumour which had been launched, by 'Amway Diamonds' and spread through 'Amway Networks' that P&G's Moon and Stars logo was a 'Satanic symbol.'

Even though the threats against Sydney eventually came to nothing, he began to become ill as a result of all the stress, and he eventaully gave up campaigning against 'Amway.'

Eyespying · 30/06/2015 12:00

www.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/Amway/AUS/p&g2.htm

mortil2 · 30/06/2015 12:06

Am I the only one who would like a little more personal experiences to come back on the thread. Where have our inspirational quotes of the day gone? Where have everyone gone?

TalcumMucker · 30/06/2015 12:18

Well my FLbot is currently celebrating the promotion of a member of her team to 'Supervisor', stating that this is a 3% pay rise. She is now apparently earning £400 extra on top of the pay of her full time job.

Being promoted in the business in which you are the owner?! And £400 per month? I just don't understand where that number comes from. And how much of that is she spending on the products herself?

Proper media scrutiny on this subject would be fantastic.

MarthasHarbour · 30/06/2015 12:37

mortil and throwingpebbles i wholeheartedly agree

eyespying tbh i glaze over and skip your posts as this thread was started as a lighthearted chat and exchange of personal experiences, i personally am starting to feel swamped by your conspiracy theories and uber long posts. Please dont take offence as I know you have a point to make but really it is becoming overwhelming.

Melonfool · 30/06/2015 12:38

None of them ever seem to mention tax, do they? £400 is actually £320 for most working people - assuming zero rate allowance is taken in normal job and not yet reached higher rate banding. And that's not taking NI into account.

I am self-employed and tax is on my mind a lot of the time, if I look as if I might fall over into the higher rate band, I start putting money in my pension to avoid it.

How do they set up these 'businesses' - are they simply sole traders, or do they have Ltd companies, do they register for VAT? Who does their accounts? I suppose if all your 'income' goes on more products then there is no income, it's all costs and no tax? HMRC might be interested though if all 'income' is 'cost'. Though there is no rule that says all businesses must make a profit (and therefore pay tax on it - that's how Amazon get away with it, all their profit is diverted to a subsidiary in a no-tax zone, as a 'cost').

throwingpebbles · 30/06/2015 12:38

Agreed mortil that's what I was trying to say above. I think the most fascinating bit of this thread was all the personal stories and anecdotes

It's not that I don't find your writings fascinating eyespying. But presumably it is all stuff covered by your website?

I really felt this thread had the most value when it was focussed on practical day to day examples.

There could be some real mileage in a campaign to flag up to people (and perhaps mums in particular hint hint mumsnet) the things they should think about before getting involved in one of these schemes

Eyespying · 30/06/2015 12:54

MarthasHarbour The great strength of cultism, has been that most people tend to glaze over when it is explained to them.

I accept that this forum is not the place for a detailed explanation of groups like FLP, but I felt obliged to make some effort in the hope that aé few people might appreciate a wider analysis.

Thus, you are actually almost making the very same point that I am making.

For reasons which escape me, you and other MN members are, somewhat ironically, mistaking my rational description of cultic groups that are controlled by fictitious, non-rational fairy stories (including crackpot conspiracy theories), for me putting forward crackpot conspiracy theories.

Nothing could be further from the truth.

throwingpebbles · 30/06/2015 13:08

Not suggesting you are crackpot at all eyespying and in fact I am not querying the legitimacy of you assertions. I have witnessed FL myself and find it most alarming what it has done to my relative. However, a link to your website would suffice.

I think practical guidance and warning for individuals would be a helpful tool for tackling this yoo

MarthasHarbour · 30/06/2015 13:55

On the contrary eyespying i understand cultism and the points you are making. I have the benefit of education and an inquisitive mind.

My point is, you have made your point, and as throwingpebbles suggests, a link to your website would be sufficient. In fact knowing now who you are, i believe this was done very early in the thread. I read your blog then with great interest, as i am sure many of us on the thread did too.

I am not calling you a crackpot. And i am not asking you to stop posting, I wouldnt dream of it. I am just saying from a personal perspective i have taken your points on board but am now skipping your subsequent posts as i am more interested in the lighthearted side of the thread. Again, i mean no offence, and please do not suggest that i am ignorant (a feeling i got from your post directed at me).

Eyespying · 30/06/2015 15:32

MarthasHarbour and throwingpebbles - No offence taken, I perfectly understand your point of view and largely agree with it. MN is not an appropriate Site to post comprehensive explanations. That said, I consider what I posted to be only a concise explanation. Also please don't think that I don't see the funny side of this.

You have to remember that I am a veteran of many Internet tangles with anonymous 'MLM' propagandists who are expert at blanket dismissals using words like 'conspiracy'.

I find that if you challenge people in these debates, their true motives soon surface. People of little value tend to respond to a challenge only in defence of their ego. People of value always look beyond their ego, and this is what you have done. Thank-you.

Eyespying · 30/06/2015 17:01

throwingpebbles - by the way? in an earlier comment, you said

'...it is hard to confirm the veracity of your claims'

I'm interested know exactly what 'claims' you doubt the veracity of?

lastuseraccount123 · 30/06/2015 18:46

tokelau they are imo. I've seen at least one friend get sucked in then spat out.

lastuseraccount123 · 30/06/2015 18:47

My FL bot update: still radio silence on her recruitment evening, so my guess is: it bombed. Now she's posting pics of herself working up a sweat with some FL drink product.

lastuseraccount123 · 30/06/2015 18:48

Agree with martha - I know you aren't a conspiracy theorist eyespying but the long posts are well, very long.

lastuseraccount123 · 30/06/2015 18:48

ps. FL makes you skinny. My bot says so.

lastuseraccount123 · 30/06/2015 19:07

is anyone else's FLBot suddenly spruiking 'sonya" makeup?