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I've been sucked into forever living!! Why do I feel like the bad guy?

999 replies

KindergartenKop · 03/06/2015 20:27

Recently an acquaintance emailed me to ask if I could 'help' her by trying a few products and giving her some feedback. Being the nice person I am I agreed. When the bag of samples turned up the penny dropped and i realised that she's trying to sell them to me (I'm naive I know!). I thought id just buy a little bubble bath. Its fucking 14 quid! No way. I'm sending the bag back and pleading eczema. Does this whole company operate by guilting friends and family into purchasing crap quality at ridic prices?

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MuffMuffTweetAndDave · 29/06/2015 17:29

True... but this is maths. You have to have a decent head for numbers to get into and through medical school! So I can see why an intelligent but presumably more arts/creative type magazine editor might fall for MLM or pyramids. Their intelligence and training could be in a totally different field. Equally I can envisage a doctor being hoodwinked in some other way, like being conned into buying a supposedly valuable painting that was actually worthless perhaps. It would just surprise me if someone who's good with numbers won't do enough maths to realise that if you're selling a product, the last thing you want is other people flogging it too. Maybe it shouldn't.

Eyespying · 29/06/2015 17:36

MuffMuffTweetAndDave - Try Google searching images of the current Earl of Errol and I think you will work out straight away what has been his chronic weakness.

www.google.fr/imgres?imgurl=http%3A%2F%2Fgeneall.net%2Fimages%2Fnames%2Fpes_154775.jpg&imgrefurl=http%3A%2F%2Fgeneall.net%2Fen%2Fname%2F154775%2Fmerlin-sereld-victor-gilbert-hay-24th-earl-of-erroll%2F&h=220&w=150&tbnid=Ytu2NKnk77WTvM%3A&zoom=1&docid=j8tl46ZlcDA9fM&ei=THORVdGAB-KU7Abe8IioCA&tbm=isch&iact=rc&uact=3&dur=697&page=2&start=35&ndsp=44&ved=0CJIBEK0DMCQ

A further clue lies in the current Earl's connection with a certain highland and lowland liquid industry.

Confession - I know a member of the Earl's family.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Josslyn_Hay,_22nd_Earl_of_Erroll

Try also looking at the 22nd Earl of Erroll who was a member of the British Union of Fascists and who was shot dead.

Melonfool · 29/06/2015 17:57

I think Eyespying is the guy who writes the blog that keeps being quoted? If not, it's plagiarism!

I suspect he Googles FLP and MLM every now and then to see if it's being discussed, or his blog threw up that he was getting a lot if hits directly from MN.

lastuseraccount123 · 29/06/2015 18:07

hi muff, I beg to differ. if people want to believe something, it matters not that they have a good head for numbers.

lastuseraccount123 · 29/06/2015 18:07

ah Melon that would make sense.

Eyespying · 29/06/2015 18:18

Melonfool - Well worked out. However, MN members actually contacted me directly to let me know what was happening here and that links to my FLP article had been posted. I first asked a colleague to sign up for MN and post some more, helpful links. When the comments became increasingly thoughtful, I took over 'Eyespying' and began to post myself, hoping to give members a short cut to a much deeper undersanding.

Ordinarily, I would have used my own name, but it's quite dififficult to register a real name here.

Eyespying · 29/06/2015 18:25

By the way Melonfool, after being contacted by MN members, I discovered that around 400 hits suddenly come to my Blog from Mumsnet, but I tend not to monitor these matters.

MuffMuffTweetAndDave · 29/06/2015 18:36

Perhaps lastuser. But I should think there must be people who see right through it but think they could make money by exploiting the stupidity of others anyway? I mean, from what I've heard that's how the ones at the top feel anyway.

Eyespying · 29/06/2015 19:25

MuffMuffTweetAndDave -This is a very interesting area psychologically, because all the instigators of cults are persons suffering from severe and inflexible Narcissistic Personality Disorder. The more their adherents, and casual observers, believe their narcissistic fantasies: the more the instigators tend to fall for their own scripted lies and false justifications. In the very worst cases, cult instigators have become full-blown megalomaniacal psychopaths, and their core-adherents have become perfect little copies of their evil masters, thoughtlessly furthering their increasingly grandiose hidden criminal objectives - completely convinced that they are righteous heroes.

This a phenomenon over which cultists themselves have no control.

In my experience, most core cult adherents are incapable of seeing themselves or their leaders as menally ill criminals and liars. Some of them would prefer to kill themselves rather than face reality. Their groups' comic-book controlling scenarios systematically invert reality and reflect them as good guys, no matter what crimes they commit or lies they tell. Yet somewhere deep in the recesses of core-cultists minds, they suspect the truth from time to time.

Thus, it can be very difficult to determine what the motives are of persons who fall deeply into MLM cults. In certain rare cases, MLM cult adherents who have achieved temporary 'success' recruiting, but who have then discovered the shocking truth about where all the money is being generated (i.e. from the sale of publications, recordings, tickets to meetings, etc.), have suddenly faced up to reality and decided to leave.

Eric Scheibeler, who came out of 'Amway,' is a good example of this rare type of morally-courageous ex-core-cult adherent. Eric, whom I have met, has freely admitted that during his deluded 'Amway' years, he would have been prepared to physically attack persons such as myself. Yet Eric lost at least $100 thousands during 10 years of de facto 'Amway' slavery and passed around $4 millions to his masters.

Libitina · 29/06/2015 19:39

Why do all FBFLbots keep saying "smash it" Or "let's smash this" ? Smashing flipping every sentence!

That and my personal favourite #Bossbabe.

A few on my FB feed had a get together at someones house. They all turned up in their Audis. Photo's and captions imply that they bought them because of thier wonderful job. I know for a fact that at least one of them is a lease car that has nothing to do with FL whatsoever.

Oh, and what's a 'Soaring Manager'? Is that one up from 'Assistant Manager' (of your own business, how does that work?) ?

Eyespying · 29/06/2015 19:56

Libitina - The hierarchical levels in 'MLM' cults are neither original nor unique. They correspond to the levels of 'initiation' and 'obedience' in traditional fraternal secret societies like 'Freemasonry' and 'Rosicrucianism.'

I don't know why FLBots are obsessed with 'smashing.' What I can tell you is that the original 'MLM' cult, 'Amway' and its many copy-cats (including 'FLP') borrowed plenty of 'Masonic' key-words and images. e.g. Without the slightest pause for thought, 'MLM' adherents invariably speak of 'Building the Business' (i.e. recruiting new adherents in the hope that they too will recruit new adherents, etc., ad infinitum) and of 'Tools' (i.e. thought-stopping publications, recordings, meetings, etc. which teach the adherents how to recruit and bring more money into the organization).

For more than half a century, 'MLM' recruitment has worked by invitation (through personal relationships) into wheels of (apparently autonomous) sub-groups corresponding to 'Masonic Orders, Chapters, Lodges,' etc. In reality, these have been centrally-controlled and unified by the one dualistic (negative vs positive) controlling narrative. The largest sub-groups (which have been styled as commercial companies) have operated in geographically-defined enclaves, i.e. continents and countries. Behind their reality-inverting 'direct selling' fronts, the sanctimonious bosses of a growing number of essentially-identical, major, organized crime groups have all been pretending moral and intellectual authority whilst running, and dissimulating, blame-the-victim, closed-market swindles and related advance fee frauds.

In general, the employees of the constituent 'MLM' front companies have not even been low-level 'MLM' initiates and, therefore, they have had little idea of what they have really been involved in. After all, by their very nature, only the instigators of 'secret societies' have access to the truth.

Melonfool · 29/06/2015 20:08

Thank you for your blog and the work you're doing to highlight this evil practice. I really feel for you and what your family went through.

If you look back on this thread I posted early on about the Herbalife fed investigation.

I've read a lot of the links, the links within and googled more myself. Years ago a bf got us invited to an Amway thing. I can't remember much about it other than them going on about how you either have or money, never both, but with Amway you coukd have both...... said bf had been suckered in previously but this didn't stop him fancying another 'go', but I wasn't interested. I've always been a bit of an introvert and the idea of recruiting 'downlines' was very weird to me.

I find it gruesomely fascinating though.

I really hope it can be fully exposed and stopped - maybe Watchdog?

Melonfool · 29/06/2015 20:13

Oh, yes, re "soaring manager" etc, this is like Amway where you were "an Amway diamond" etc, like levels in a computer game! And all of them so proud.....

Eyespying · 29/06/2015 20:18

I don't know if any members of Mumsnet have ever studied secret societies, but you can't really understand how 'MLM' cults function without knowing certain basic facts. 'MLM' cults are neither original nor unique and, consequently, it is a mistake to try to understand them in isolation.

_

The leaders of the traditional 'fraternal, secret society' known as the ‘Free and Accepted Masons,’ or 'Freemasons,' have promoted the concepts of religious tolerance, democracy and respect for the rule of law. In fact, the movement has played a significant role in history (particularly, during the American, and French, revolutions, when it was a secret forum for debate). The founding, democratic values of the (current) 5th French Republic are embodied in the originally-'Masonic' slogan 'Liberty, Fraternity, Egality,' and the American dollar bill carries the 'Masonic' symbols of a pyramid and an all-seeing eye. The original signatories of the American ‘Declaration of Independence' were all white male Protestants or 'Deists' (i.e. 'persons believing in the existence of a supreme being arising from reason rather than revelation'). The overwhelming majority were also 'Freemasons.'

That said, 'Freemasonry' is a self-perpetuating, non-rational, esoteric, ritual belief system, based on an essentially-fictional, closed-logic narrative, presented as fact using a constant repetition of reality-inverting key-words and images combined with pseudo-scientific mystification. Unfortunately, like all non-rational belief systems, in the wrong hands, 'Freemasonry' can be easily perverted for the purpose of human exploitation. Indeed, in certain countries (like Italy), a form of major organized-crime linked to so-called 'Black Masonic Lodges,' has been identified and (in theory) outlawed. It is also interesting to note that, although 'Freemasons' were high on the list of Adolf Hitler's imagined enemies, and were persecuted by the 'Nazi' regime, the 'Nazi Party' itself evolved out of the unification of various perverted secret societies.

Possibly the simplest way to describe 'Freemasonry' is to say that, internally, it exhibits the essential identifying characteristics of a traditional, dualistic religion, but externally the movement has been presented using non-religious terminology. Interestingly, the organization insists that it is not a religion, and 'Freemasons' now tend to make the nonsensical claim to be the members of 'society with secrets: rather than a secret society.'

Traditionally, Freemasons have claimed to be the guardians of a secret knowlege, and related power, derived from mathematics and geometry.

By process of deduction, it has been assumed that 'Freemasonry' evolved from medieval trade guilds of stonemasons and carpenters, responsible for the construction of Cathedrals in Britain, but the first evidence of 'Freemasonry' as a 'secret society,' appeared in Scotland in the early 17th century. The earliest known text which can be directly linked to the 'Masonic secret society' rather than to the actual craft of masonry, or to the mathematical science of geometry, is James Anderson's 'Masonic Rules.' This was published in 1723. Although the inspiration for the symbology of 'Freemasonry' probably came from mysterious, geometric inscriptions on churches built for 'Templars' in Scotland, the origins of the 'secret' at the heart of the organization are not that difficult to deduce.

Core-adherents of 'Freemasonry' are the product of co-ordinated, devious techniques of social, psychological and physical persuasion designed to shut down their critical, and evaluative, faculties and convince them that their leadership has exclusive access to a super-human knowledge derived from the Great/Supreme Architect of the Universe, via ancient Egypt and Euclidean geometry. Initiates are arbitrarily categorized as the ‘Sacred', and non-initiates as the ‘Profane'. Belief in the self-gratifying 'Masonic' myth spread throughout Europe, and then all over the globe with the British Empire. Although its adherents currently number several millions, 'Freemasonry' is generally in decline. It is still most popular in the USA where allied social groups (dedicated to charitable work and with no official standing) also developed. In practise, in Britain and the USA, the official membership has been drawn mainly from amongst white, male Anglo-Saxon Protestants, but 'Freemasonry' is fundamentally 'Deist' and, therefore, in theory, is open to anyone.

In Catholic France, 'Freemasonry' was influenced by 'Rosicrucianism' and since the 19th century, the requirements of francophone 'Freemasons' have been slightly different to those of their anglophone counterparts.

Officially (outside of France), 'Freemasonry' has been perpetuated by initiating 'free-born, sane, adult males of good moral standing, who already believe in the existence of one supreme being and in the immortality of the human soul.' Recruitment has worked solely by invitation (through personal relationships) into a wheel of (apparently autonomous) sub-groups. In reality, these are unified by the same narrative. The sub-groups operate in geographically-defined enclaves. 'Freemasonry' is a vast pyramid of humans, which itself comprises ever-smaller pyramids known as 'Orders', 'Lodges', etc. The movement can, therefore, also be described as a mind-numbing game of construction played to strict, geometric rules using human building-blocks. The alleged object of 'Freemasonry' is to climb through its hierarchical levels in a system of 'obedience', and through parallel levels of 'initiation' in a system of 'outer and inner hermetic circles of secret knowledge'. Adherents are graded by 'degrees' - 'Entered Apprentices, Fellows of the Craft, and Master Masons' - which themselves are also graded by 'degrees'. These can number as many as 1000 in certain 'Lodges', but 33 is the traditional number. At the top of the pyramid, is a tiny minority of elite initiates known as 'Grand Masters' whose beliefs and behaviour are to be duplicated. Their 'ultimate, secret knowledge', derived from the ‘Great/Supreme Architect of the Universe,’ must not be written down or passed to the uninitiated.

Thus, classically of an non-rational, esoteric, ritual belief system, the further an initiate progresses into the mental labyrinth of 'Freemasonry': the more absurd, mystifying and ultimately incomprehensible the closed-logic scenario overwhelming the critical and evaluative faculties of the core- adherents of the organization, becomes. Indeed, it is a very revealing exercise to ask a committed 'Freemason' to explain his activities using only accurate, deconstructed language.

The following, thought stopping, anonymous statement was sent to Blog (presumeably, by a 'Freemason'):

'Freemasonry is a society of men concerned with moral and spiritual values. Its members are taught its precepts by a series of ritual dramas which follow ancient forms and use stonemasons customs and tools as allegorical guides. The fundamental ritual consists of a drama of building King Solomon's Temple and the fate of its master architect. Using this allegory, moral lessons are taught. Since the story concerns building of a temple, Masonic rituals are replete with tools of masons, like level, plumb rule, square, compasses and so on.'

From its beginning, 'Freemasonry' has been frowned-on by the leaders of traditional religions and banned in many countries. It is not difficult to see why so many observers have ridiculed, and/or feared, the organization. Mystifying 'secret' rituals are performed in a 'Temple', within a 'Temple', within a 'Temple' (i.e. a building, containing a locked-room, containing an arrangement of 3 columns set facing to the East on a 'mosaic' of black and white squares resembling a chess board). The innermost 'Temple' is lit by candles surveyed by a ritual image of an 'all-seeing eye' and bordered by a rope tied in a symbolic knot. During rituals, adherents wear ceremonial aprons, gloves and sashes, and they carry ceremonial swords or building tools. Adherents are obliged to visualise themselves not as individuals, but as rough-hewn stones being crafted into the regular building-blocks of one universal Temple. Outside the 'Temple', 'Freemasons' recognise one another by the use of 'secret' words and physical salutations; they also wear badges and rings (often decorated with the symbol of a pair of compasses and set-square) etc.

throwingpebbles · 29/06/2015 20:21

A bit like the mumsnet scarf/mentions of gregs sausage rolls/Pom bears then ????!!!Wink

Melonfool · 29/06/2015 20:25

My grandad WS a Freemason, my dad always said it was a religious cult. But my dad was a bit mad and thought scouts and brownies were cults.

MiscellaneousAssortment · 29/06/2015 20:34

bovny what a disturbing video. Why make a skit with two cartoon bears who have totally flat expressionless computer voices?! How exactly does that bring to life a compelling argument for MLM????

Weird....

Eyespying · 29/06/2015 21:21

Melonfool - Your dad wasn't as mad as all that? He just seems to have been a bit (or rather a lot) wide of the mark. He actually sounds like the father of someone I used to know.

Although Freemasonry in its traditional format is not cultic, its structures have been widely copied by cultic racketeers. Interestingly, the structures of the boy scouts and girl guides were turned into the 'Hitler Youth' and 'League of German Maidens' in 'Nazi' Germany. There were even the 'Nazi' equivalents of cubs and brownies.

At one time the Hitler Youth was affiliated to the World Scouting movement.

Indeed, I once watched an interview with a man who, as a teenager, had gone to Germany on a British scout troop exchange trip with a Hitler Youth group. He was later astonished to discover that when the same Hitler youth group came to Britain, they were trained to gather military intelligence in secret.

Melonfool · 29/06/2015 21:29

Eyespying, if you have time for fiction, Dominion is an interesting book - about what would have happened if we had appeased Hitler instead of going to war.

Anyway, off topic.

Eyespying · 29/06/2015 21:53

Thanks - Did you see this recent German best seller - 'He's back'?

newsfeed.time.com/2013/02/10/hes-back-hitler-satire-tops-germanys-bestseller-list/

_

Narrated in the first-person by Hitler, the story follows the Führer as he awakens from a 66-year sleep in his bunker beneath Berlin to find an entirely changed Germany. In the celebrity-obsessed modern-day city, everyone assumes the fulminating leader of the Nazi party is a comedian in character — and soon he becomes a celebrity with a guest slot on a Turkish-born comedian’s TV show. His bigoted rants are interpreted as a satirical exposure of prejudice, leading him to decide to start his own political party.

The book, which has already sold hundreds of thousands of copies and is being translated into several other languages, including English, has unsurprisingly sparked debate in a country that has grappled for decades with Hitler’s unconscionable legacy.

__

Perhaps the author, Timur Vermes, will write a sequel in which Hitler's new party get recognized as the old one in disguise, so he decides to adapt his disguise to fit the spirit of the times, and he starts an 'income opportunity' cult?

Melonfool · 29/06/2015 22:09

I think my dp has read that. It's not really my sort of stuff but am enjoying the ghastly alternate reality in Dominion.

Eyespying · 29/06/2015 22:20

Melonfool - I'm not temted by 'He's Back' either, but I was directed to the reviews by someone who has been following the frighteningly-familiar 'Lyoness' tragicomedy.

Hubert Freidl is even referred to by his German and Austrian 'Lyoness' adherents as 'Fuhrer' (leader). They have a 'plan' to take over the world.

Themoonornot · 29/06/2015 22:23

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

backwardpossom · 29/06/2015 22:26

My 'original' FLbot has just been promoted to Manager after 7 months in 'her' business with 'her' products. All of her FLbot minions have posted about how she's an inspiration, smashed it, how it's going to open so many doors for her family and her etc etc. One of them has said "enjoy your extra £2000 a month to your income"... Pardon me for being sceptical...

Oh, and here's a question some of you might be able to answer... I have four FLbots on my FB now. All four of them are on maternity leave. Surely if they're declaring all this amazing income, their maternity pay would be affected...?

mortil2 · 29/06/2015 22:58

EyeSpying could you please link to your blog. I am having real problems locating it for some reason. This is all so fascinating. I have two FLbots and forever getting my motivational quotes and successful updates.