Jan 22 Low Carb Bootcamp - the final weigh-in!

[BIWI]

Morning all.

Here, for its last outing this Bootcamp is the Spreadsheet of Fabulousness

I know the last couple of weeks have been a bit quiet, and apologies for Covid-related absence from me as well, but it looks like this has been a pretty successful Bootcamp, which is great.

I don't know when the next Bootcamp will be, but probably won't be till around May at some point. However, we'll keep this thread going in the interim.

Don't forget to have a good rummage around the other threads in the Bootcamp topic in the interim, especially the recipe threads, as there's lots of useful stuff there.

And thank you to everyone who has posted, helped to support other posters and even those who have just lurked at the back! I genuinely wouldn't have even half the motivation to do this without you. This is a rather lovely little corner of Mumsnet.

Thanks @BIWI

Apologies @BIWI , I shouldn't have written that.

I just got carried away by what I read about dietdoctors and the way its owner manipulated science in his book. It makes my blood boil when science is twisted for profit. I even made the mistake to watch some of his YouTube videos and I think I lost it.
Because that's where his success lies, on YouTube, not in a famous university like Christopher Gardner or the National institute of health , like Kevin Hall. Couple that with the monetary aspect, and I guess I lost my judgement and one should never write at night. So sorry.

PubMed is good alternative and if a paper has a paywall , I can unlock it for you.

Another 1lb off for me. 16lb in total. Very pleased with that as I was out twice this week. Ate too much (all LC) and a fair few glasses of vino on the first night out and the scales were horrified 😄. Better after the second

My next target is to lose 6lb by 1May for a wedding. I think I'll miss this as losses have slowed and good is 1lb a week but you never know! I'd be v happy with 4.

From next week I'll be living without a kitchen so that could go either way....

I also now have an appointment with a foot consultant so hopefully he can put me on the path to recovery and exercise. I've just finished a course which has taken up all my weekends so am hoping to get back to swimming to tone up the arms and jelly belly 

@Bookaholic73 well done on your planning and hope it pays off. Good luck with the blood results - I had some done a few weeks ago and my blood sugar was really good with a 3% risk of diabetes

I had a busy weekend and didn't get time to engage with the high fat diet-autism conversation. I have an autistic child myself but have never come across that connection before. Indeed, I breastfed two of my other children while eating a high fat diet but neither of them are autistic whereas with my first child I was eating a typical "healthy" low fat diet through pregnancy and breastfeeding as recommended by health professionals. My initial reaction would be skepticism since fat is so widely demonised therefore it is blamed for every condition and illness under the sun. I also think it's not usually possible to extrapolate from rodent studies to humans.

A Maternal High-Fat Diet during Early Development Provokes Molecular Changes Related to Autism Spectrum Disorder in the Rat Offspring Brain in rats.

Maternal high-fat diet programming of the neuroendocrine system and behavior in animal models.

A Maternal High-Fat Diet during Early Development Provokes Molecular Changes Related to Autism Spectrum Disorder in the Rat Offspring Brain in rats again.

Exposure to maternal high-fat diet induces extensive changes in the brain of adult offspring in mice.

Maternal high-fat diet during lactation reprograms the dopaminergic circuitry in mice in mice.

Alteration of the Early Development Environment by Maternal Diet and the Occurrence of Autistic-like Phenotypes in Rat Offspring in rats.

The only study that was in humans was this one: Maternal Dietary Fat Intake in Association With Autism Spectrum Disorders which admits that the results should be interpreted cautiously because the number of women assessed was small. They also found that other unhealthy characteristics were associated with a high fat intake such as low physical activity, high BMI, high alcohol intake, and smoking. So we have a lot of confounding factors in the "fat causes autism" theory.

The study reported that "saturated fat... as well as fat intake from animal, vegetable, and dairy sources, were not associated with risk of having a child with ASD" (my emphasis.) There was however, "a statistically significant association with low omega-3 fatty acid intake." Other results that they found "require replication and further consideration." My conclusion from this study would be that it is important to eat at least a small amount of fish (higher intakes of omega-3 were not associated with a further decrease in risk) during pregnancy and breastfeeding.

I really wouldn't worry about this @carbibarbie there isn't anything showing that a high fat diet increases autism risk in humans. This one paper is an epidemiological study that looks for correlation but hasn't managed to identify anything that should affect dietary advice to women who are pregnant and breastfeeding, apart from the (already known) information that the omega-3 fats in fish oil are beneficial to neurological development. It also runs contrary to the information that both high omega-3 intake and ketogenic diets have been shown to be beneficial in autistic individuals, along with modulation of the gut microbiome as previously mentioned.

Many thanks @StuntNun.

Just found this, I'm jumping back onto low carb after a dreadful 4 weeks of bingeing and eating terribly. Reading this thread for inspiration. Low carbing is the only thing that works for me.

We've been away for the weekend and I've definitely not been able to stick to low carb as my food intake was controlled by other people. However, I'm comfortable with that, and with getting back on the low carb bandwagon today. I enjoyed the carbs I did eat, though not nearly as much as I thought I would, and don't feel guilty for having eaten them. It's been a lovely revelation to be able to have a weekend off from lowcarbing and not feel horrifically guilty and as if I've ruined all my good work so may as well faceplant into the largest Easter egg I can fine! For me, knowing I can have a weekend/week off (or at least being more flexible in the number of carbs I eat) is going to be key long term to me successfully sticking to this WOE.

@Bookaholic73 - there are a couple of blood sugar tests they can run depending on exactly what they are investigating. A fasting blood sugar test is a snapshot of your blood sugar at that exact moment, and is done fasted to get your baseline. The HbA1c looks at the sugar encapsulated in your red blood cells and is the standard check for diabetes. Since your red blood cells have a life expectancy of about 3 months, this result returns your average blood sugar over the last 3 months. It gives an indication of how good/fast your body is at breaking down sugar/carbs. HbA1c is what I have tested annually to check for diabetes (I had gestational diabetes so will be tested annually for life as GD massively increases my chances of developing T2 diabetes)

@carbibarbie - I've not read those papers in detail, but I would caution against assuming that any results from Rat/Mice models can be directly translated into humans. It is very common that research results from mice and rat models simply don't hold up when you test the same things in humans. Also, several of the papers that demonstrate that the use of a high fat diet causes autism in mice, also demonstrate that the mice given the high fat diet put on substantially more weight than those on the medium or low fat diets. Which suggests that these mice are also being fed more calories than the mice on the other diet (which makes sense as fat is more calorie dense per gram than carbs and protein) and therefore obesity could be causing the brain changes rather than the high fat diet. The only paper link that was provided which actually looks at human subjects (academic.oup.com/aje/article/178/2/209/122638) actually showed the complete opposite to the mice/rat studies and concluded that "Maternal intake of linoleic acid was significantly inversely associated with ASD risk in offspring, corresponding to a 34% reduction in risk in the highest versus lowest quartiles of intake. Mothers in the lowest 5% of ω-3 fatty acid intake had a significant increase in offspring ASD risk". I give my daughter omega 3 supplements on a daily basis, as they have been demonstrated to improve learning, eyesight and others. I certainly have no concerns about her having a high fat diet. I was also diagnosed with gestational diabetes at 16 weeks, so spent 24 weeks of my pregnancy on a moderate carb, high fat diet to control my blood sugar and my daughter is as bright as a button with no signs of autism!

Thank you everyone.
The blood tests came back as I thought, I’m prediabetic.

Strangely enough, it’s really motivated me to finally sort my health and fitness out, specifically my relationship with sugar.

I am glad that I prepped stuff for today, it made everything super easy.

I did really start craving sugar earlier this afternoon. I got that 4pm dip in energy, and the sugar cravings started.
I managed to cope with them by eating a hard boiled egg. I shouldn’t have bothered, as it was more a psychological craving than physical one.

@pinknsparkly I think I’ll take the occasional weekend off once I’ve been low carbing for a while, probably Christmas Day too!

@SummerSazz well done in losing 16lbs. Did you try many ‘Diets’ before LC? I’ve probably tried low fat the most, and obviously am still overweight.
Do you know what you’ll eat without a kitchen? Will you have access to a microwave, slow cooker etc?

I’m ending the day feeling positive. Although I think my sugar detox headache has started.
I think I read somewhere that drinking Bovril and other similar stock like that can help with the headaches. Does anyone know if there is any truth to that?

Yes, it will help @Bookaholic73 - you need the salt. Three key electrolytes - sodium, magnesium and potassium. Sodium is the most important, so cook with salt and add it to your food. A quick fix could be a hot drink made with Oxo, or Bovril or Marmite.

Other good food sources for the other electrolytes are salmon, avocado, spinach and full fat natural yoghurt.

@StuntNun

I had a busy weekend and didn't get time to engage with the high fat diet-autism conversation. I have an autistic child myself but have never come across that connection before. Indeed, I breastfed two of my other children while eating a high fat diet but neither of them are autistic whereas with my first child I was eating a typical "healthy" low fat diet through pregnancy and breastfeeding as recommended by health professionals. My initial reaction would be skepticism since fat is so widely demonised therefore it is blamed for every condition and illness under the sun. I also think it's not usually possible to extrapolate from rodent studies to humans.

A Maternal High-Fat Diet during Early Development Provokes Molecular Changes Related to Autism Spectrum Disorder in the Rat Offspring Brain in rats.

Maternal high-fat diet programming of the neuroendocrine system and behavior in animal models.

A Maternal High-Fat Diet during Early Development Provokes Molecular Changes Related to Autism Spectrum Disorder in the Rat Offspring Brain in rats again.

Exposure to maternal high-fat diet induces extensive changes in the brain of adult offspring in mice.

Maternal high-fat diet during lactation reprograms the dopaminergic circuitry in mice in mice.

Alteration of the Early Development Environment by Maternal Diet and the Occurrence of Autistic-like Phenotypes in Rat Offspring in rats.

The only study that was in humans was this one: Maternal Dietary Fat Intake in Association With Autism Spectrum Disorders which admits that the results should be interpreted cautiously because the number of women assessed was small. They also found that other unhealthy characteristics were associated with a high fat intake such as low physical activity, high BMI, high alcohol intake, and smoking. So we have a lot of confounding factors in the "fat causes autism" theory.

The study reported that "saturated fat... as well as fat intake from animal, vegetable, and dairy sources, were not associated with risk of having a child with ASD" (my emphasis.) There was however, "a statistically significant association with low omega-3 fatty acid intake." Other results that they found "require replication and further consideration." My conclusion from this study would be that it is important to eat at least a small amount of fish (higher intakes of omega-3 were not associated with a further decrease in risk) during pregnancy and breastfeeding.

I really wouldn't worry about this @carbibarbie there isn't anything showing that a high fat diet increases autism risk in humans. This one paper is an epidemiological study that looks for correlation but hasn't managed to identify anything that should affect dietary advice to women who are pregnant and breastfeeding, apart from the (already known) information that the omega-3 fats in fish oil are beneficial to neurological development. It also runs contrary to the information that both high omega-3 intake and ketogenic diets have been shown to be beneficial in autistic individuals, along with modulation of the gut microbiome as previously mentioned.

I doubt any ethic board would approve interventional studies in humans. We are talking about organogenesis and neurodevelopment in embryos and infant. We don't do that in science, it is kind of illegal.

Why try to dismiss in vivo science just because it doesn't fit your view. Opt for caution, and state that animal studies suggest a high fat diet isn't recommended during pregnancy and lactation.

Thanks @BIWI I’ll have a drink of Bovril before heading to bed then. Sorry for so many questions, but is it worth the money (and effort) to invest in specific electrolyte drinks?

It wouldn't do any harm!

Thanks @Bookaholic73 and yes I have tried many diets! I lost 4 stone 10 years ago by counting calories and going to the gym. It was good as nothing was off limits as long as within calorie allowance (so sort of became low fat if that makes sense)

I've LC'd a number of times and I LOVE the food. I don't have a sweet tooth anyway so suits me well. I've just drifted off it and then start eating bread and drinking beer 😄. I do think it's a really good LT WOE and I don't find it hard - I just need to keep it at the front of mind. The best thing is that I'm rarely hungry so doesn't seem a bind. My blood sugars are excellent (sorry to hear about yours 😢) and my cholesterol really good so I definitely think it has health benefits wider than weight loss.

Not sure what I'll do without a kitchen although I do have a campervan with a hob so may well use that on the drive! I don't tend to stress about food but that's probably because I'm so used to finding quick and easy fixes for meals. I'll have a salad bar lunch with protein at work so don't need a big meal in the evening.

Good luck with it!

Welcome @Ineedastyleicon

Oh and I was in London today and found these in Sainsburys! Have to say I prefer the S&V ones but can't find them in local supermarkets. I need to head to the internet I think!

Also just found some sweet chilli ones! Ocado seem to do them.

MatchaTea the study in humans didn't support the theory from the rodent models, in fact it appeared to contradict it. So in the absence of evidence there isn't any justification for advising prospective and breastfeeding women to limit fat consumption. Just like the fact that a high cholesterol diet causes fatty deposits to build up in the arteries of rabbits but that issue doesn't transfer across to human research. It's also skating very close to the line of blaming parents for their child's autism and suggesting that autism can be cured. These concepts are rejected by the autistic community.

@Bookaholic73 - sorry to hear about your pre-diabetes diagnosis but please take heart that it is fairly easy to reverse. I was pre diabetic prior to pregnancy and non diabetic after giving birth thanks to havijg to follow a moderate carb diet during pregnancy. My one year post baby HbA1c then came back as pre diabetic and the first LC bootcamp I participated in successfully reversed it. I had reintroduced carbs after giving birth, but not in huge numbers (a handful of chips with dinner instead of half a plate etc). But for me, that wasn't enough to prevent pre-diabetes and it appears I really do need to follow a low carb diet to keep my blood sugar under control.

@StuntNun Science is beautifully complicated and the human body is extremely complex.
If you prefer human studies, here it is:

"Both human epidemiologic and animal model studies demonstrate that prenatal and lactational exposure to maternal obesity and high-fat diet are associated with adverse neurodevelopmental outcomes in offspring. Neurodevelopmental outcomes described in offspring of obese women include cognitive impairment, autism spectrum disorder (ASD), attention deficit hyperactivity disorder, anxiety and depression, disordered eating, and propensity for reward-driven behavior, among others. "
www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7606714/

This said, it is wrong to dismiss animal studies.

Take cigarettes, we never had interventional studies on humans. We can and did put mice in a glass cage, exposed them to cigarette smoke for 18 months and then cut them open looking for cancer tumours. We can't lock a human in a glass cage for 20 years and pump cigarette smoke in it. We never did that and we accept the animal studies, even if the tobacco company did try to challenge them.
Personal anecdotes have no value. We all know someone who smoked like a chimney and never developed lung cancer. Does it mean, cigarettes do not cause cancer? A layperson might argue so.

Diet is never simple and straightforward, but we like to err on the side of caution when it comes to babies. A glass of wine doesn't cause fetal alcohol syndrome, but we do recommend to pregnant women not to drink , that there is no safe alcohol level. We do so without having performed a single human trial.

Could we maybe agree on saying " we can't say for sure a high fat diet is safe during pregnancy and lactation " ? That's would be a fair statement .

The people in this group are on a low carb high fat diet primarily to lose weight and LCHF is extraordinarily successful for that, as well as for lowering blood pressure, reversing or preventing diabetes, and improving lipid profiles, all features of metabolic syndrome along with obesity. Our Bootcampers are not your typical obese individual like the ones in these studies with the associations with unhealthy lifestyles. As part of the rules we encourage consuming a large amount of vegetables, reduction/cessation of alcohol consumption, cutting out artificial sweeteners, limiting vegetable oils. Exercise isn't necessary for weight loss but Bootcamp promotes exercise for health reasons rather than for weight loss and the culture of Bootcamp encourages people to take up exercise. No, I cannot say that a high fat diet is not appropriate during pregnancy and breastfeeding based on the limited information you have presented when the alternative high carb diet is doing so much damage at a population level and causing epigenetic changes in our children that will worsen the obesity crisis and lead to even higher levels of diabetes and heart disease. The evidence is that being a healthy weight and having normal blood pressure, normal blood glucose, and normal cholesterol levels are going to make the most difference to your health. And a healthy, real foods-based, low carb high fat diet is an excellent way to achieve that.

I find the discussion on diet and the risks to unborn children and breast feeding children very upsetting.

We all to the best we can for our children and to read that another thing (in the ever increasing list of things) could be detrimental, just adds to anxiety and guilt.

On a generalised level, I find this way of heading to be massively more healthy than the typical western diet. The quantity and variety of vegetables, unprocessed food (or low preocessed food), reducing our taste and liking for sugar and sweet foodstuffs, reducing alcohol. I cannot imagine that can be anything but good.

I really don't think that it is for this topic to make any agreed statements on this way of eating. It is not a scientific board it is a support group. And I don't think it is supportive to respond to one particular post with an alarming suggestion - particularly when it to too late to do anything about it. Diet and health is hugely complex. In order to give specific advice to one individual we would have to know the entire context of their former eating patterns and lifestyle. That is for them and their GP / maternity support / nutritionist.

The reality is that so many in wetern society are eating a diet that is based on refined carbs, ultra processed food, sugar or sugar substitutes. The recent push for plant-based eating has only made this worse with all the fake meats.

In my opinion, any woman who is eating lots of fresh veg, cooking at home, showing her family a delicious way to eat, adding green veg and fish to their diet, is doing a great thing. Anyone who tries to / manages to breastfeed their baby is doing a great thing.

I reserve my finger pointing and ire for the 'food' industry.

@StuntNun - well said

5lb on this week. I had so many carbs.

Oh well, it's a winding road and all that. I'm off to the farm shop at lunch to buy lots of fresh veg, cheese, yoghurt and cream then back to it.

I am neither a statistician nor a medic nor a dietician nor an academic nor a parent of an autistic child but at a purely observational level, I would query a correlation between a HFLC diet and autism when the apparent rise in the prevalence of autism predates what is still essentially a niche diet (even if we find that it works ).

It could be argued that the rise of autism diagnoses correlates very closely with the rise of high carb, high sugar, low fat diets

But even I know enough science to know that correlation does not equal causation

Isn't there some real evidence that gluten (amongst other carbs) can have a negative impact on autistic kids? but not that it caused it I seem to recall reading about restricted diets.

Prettybird some children with conditions such as autism do better on a keto diet, for example lessening of stimming behaviour. There are believed to be effects on the brain that improve the action of neutotransmitters, reduce oxidative stress etc. and also knock on effects on the gut microbiome. This isn't about preventing autism though but a dietary intervention that would be part of a whole treatment program to improve symptoms. As you say, there are also indications that carbohydrate metabolism is impaired and therefore limiting carb intake can have positive effects in autistic children such as aiding social behaviour. It's a huge minefield though, and the concern trolling on this thread isn't helping anyone. If anyone here is pregnant, breastfeeding or trying to conceive then I'm happy to chat to them about it further but I don't think it's something we really need to spend a lot more time on otherwise.

Thank you @StuntNun I

Im sure that will be reassuring to posters and lurkers alike