Father needs single mothers perspective

[dad35workingaway]

Hi,

First post on mumsnet, really think I could do with some advice from a female (mother) perspective.

My partner and I have just split. We had been together nearly 8 years. We have 2 girls aged 2 and 3. I've been working away (350 miles) for the last 7 months. I work the shift pattern 12 days on 2 days off, and then 11 days on 3 days off. Every time it's a weekend off I have been travelling home to see my partner and girls.

I earn roughly 58k per year. Upon taking this job our relationship was fragile at that time. My partner is a great mum, she works 3 days per week in a job that pays £1600 per month (net) has additional income from musical talents and receives some help from the government towards childcare.

The financial agreement before leaving home to work away was I would pay £700 per month towards the home. Although I have a decent income, my partner solely owns the house, has a decent car and a very secure job. I have a cheap car, a credit rating that doesn't allow me to get on to the property market at the moment, but at least now a secure job. Apart from this I have nothing else but my monthly pay check. I take around £4800 per month (net). Im also due a pay rise within the next 3 months which will take my monthly net to around £6000.

Owing to the relationship being rocky when I left and both of us holding very different asset values, we agreed the £700 figure with the aim everything for my girls being covered and anything else left over to go towards the household and make ends meet. She didn't want to get married so I was protecting my new found income with the aim of saving and getting on the property ladder and knew that she would be financially okay in her current financial situation.

A few months after I had left for work, my partner started complaining that what I was giving her was too low. After discussion, I upped this to £1000 per month. I was genuinely happy to pay this... as we were together, building a future and thought the additional money would help out with household bills etc. my partner also has roughly £5k in her account.

Since the split (very recent)... things have become quite sour between us. Maybe it's because I'm bitter about the separation (I didn't want it to happen), I feel happily obligated to provide money for my daughters, but not so happy to pay for additional things for the household. Money has not yet been raised but it will be next on the list.

With my salary I get a non taxable allowance. It's roughly £16k per year. This is to cover my accommodation/food. I have been in touch with cms/csa and they have told me that any child maintenance claim made, this money cannot be factored into the maintenance agreement because it's legally considered 'non taxable' and for some reason can't be factored in.
Taking this into account, my taxable salary is lower.

Plugging numbers in the gov calculator. It states I should pay around £650 per month. I'm trying to find a fair middle ground and would like to offer more than this but reduce the payments slightly from what I was previously giving (£1000). Do you think would £800 per month would be substantial and fair, as I think this will cover everything my girls require with them being so young and is more generous that the minimum the government require... I'm just worried she will take the £200 drop badly and things will spiral out of control in our communication.

My girls are the most important factor in all of this but I would rather save the additional £200 to do nice things with them as their father or bank the money in savings for them later on in life. I don't really want to be paying for my ex's new single lifestyle.

What I want to know is am I being unfair in dropping the payments now we are separated. Is the amount a fair amount to pay my ex and is it okay for me to pay for just my children but not additionally to the house they live in when I myself don't live there anymore. I also know the pay rise should mean I pay more but based on principle I don't really want to fund her lifestyle, only what is required for my children to be secure.

I want to be fair but I also feel I need to be firm. Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks

[xJoy]

The children are being raised "in the household".

[Tempone]

New single lifestyle?!

[xJoy]

What is her lifestyle? Working mother?
Do you think that she should have nothing, no disposable income at all?
My x thought like you but luckily a judge agreed that the sacrifices of parenting should be made equal. Although he stopped paying!! Even though I work, I should have nothing in his eyes. He works and has a nice home, clothes et cetera, but he believes I do not deserve any thing above breadline. I should work, raise two kids and be poor, and if I'm not poor, he believes he funded my m&s top.
It's a common and distorted view. Because if I didn't have dc id have more money.

My advice would be to have a long hard think. The number one predictor of poor outcomes for children is poverty not being from a single parent family.

[dad35workingaway]

I'm preparing myself for the worst..I think maybe its through trying to hurt through the break up but she has mentioned finding another man who she could split the mortgage, bills with them in her house with. Hence newly single

[Jadviga]

Hello OP,

I am probably not the sort of single parent you were thinking of as I'm a single parent by choice (through sperm donation). So I never had a partner and never dealt with this kind of issue.

This said, I think the fairest way to handle this is to take feelings out of the equation and look at facts. How much do the children cost per month ? Consider childcare, food, clothes, toys, etc. Budget this - you can ask your ex to budget with you so she can't claim to be blindsided (assuming she is fairly reasonable).

Then split, taking into account earnings/earning power.

For instance : if you both earn roughly the same thing, cut in half.

If you earn twice what she does and she can't up her hours, then it'd seem fair for the split to be 65/35.

If she earns less but could earn as much as you do - just chooses not to - then I'd consider the wage she would earn if she was working more, as it's not your job to pay for her not to work. This must be done in good faith however.

I think it's a well known fact that CMS and how much a child actually costs to raise are two very different things.

If your partner won't engage in the process then I'd err on the side of less, assuming you are dealing in good faith and not taking this as an excuse to be controlling.

Regardless of the above of course you should make sure there is enough to meet your children's basic needs - food, clothes, heating, etc.

[xJoy]

Ps childcare for two pre schoolers even 3 days a week, who minds them?

[Dotcheck]

What extras for the house do you feel are unreasonable?

Are you taking into account childcare and food/ clothing etc?

Due to work, you barely see your children- this means your ex almost never has time ‘off’ from children. What price do you put on that?

You have a poor credit score, but your ex owns her house- was she supporting you?

[Bootlass]

So, OP, how often will you be having the DC living with you at yours? Are you applying for 50/50, maybe every other weekend, half of the all school holidays? Will you be around to take them to GP or dentist or when they're ill Or is your ex to have them full-time and you just nip home once or twice a month to visit and this £800 is to pay for all childcare, energy bills, mortage/rent, water, food, uniforms...the list goes on? It astounds me that men think that women never use CM for the purpose it's given and are really spending it on pissing it up the wall, getting their nails done and meeting new men. Which, let's face it, is the main reason you don't want her to have any of your money, cos you think she's going to use it to help her replace you

[taxpayer1]

@xJoy

What is her lifestyle? Working mother?
Do you think that she should have nothing, no disposable income at all?
My x thought like you but luckily a judge agreed that the sacrifices of parenting should be made equal. Although he stopped paying!! Even though I work, I should have nothing in his eyes. He works and has a nice home, clothes et cetera, but he believes I do not deserve any thing above breadline. I should work, raise two kids and be poor, and if I'm not poor, he believes he funded my m&s top.
It's a common and distorted view. Because if I didn't have dc id have more money.

My advice would be to have a long hard think. The number one predictor of poor outcomes for children is poverty not being from a single parent family.

You deserve everything you provide for yourself. Your ex's only obligation is with the children, not you.

[POTC]

Mumsnet is the wrong place to ask. Very similar thread but where its a woman potentially going to pay more on behalf of her partner and all the replies are saying as long as you pay the csa minimum that's fine. Because you're a man you'll never be told that here!

[Boopydoo]

I'd stick with your current agreement and keep quiet. I never understand why you think a mother would be taking your money and spending it on herself. Its for the children and you now need to trust her.
I've done the bringing up of two on my own for years, their father payed begrudgingly and settled on an amount of £20 a week for them both so as to make sure I wasn't having a good time, rolls eyes.
He too worked away a lot and I did the majority of childcare before we split, it's hard work! Mentally, physically and financially. You need to grieve the end of the relationship but drop that way of thinking for sure.

[dad35workingaway]

I think it's quite easy for emotion to get in the way which clouds logical judgment, which is why I need some practical answers.

So in terms of extras/lifestyle, I don't mind if additional money goes on an essential need such as a bill, but if someone new moves in as a potential 'stepfather' to my children and between them they can easily cover the cost of the household, then should I be realistically paying for more than just my children? The point raised before about getting a budget from my ex is helpful. If it works out that £800 isn't enough to cover the needs of my girls then I would be happy to increase this. In regards to what my ex can/can't do, relating to her own finances, my current view is that is down to her to sort out.. we would be separated. I would rather she stay at home 2 weekdays with my girls as I think that is better for them but if she decides to work instead and childcare bills go up then I would offer to help towards that. I don't want to be controlling in any way. I just want a fair trade as this will be for the next 16-17 years. And beyond.

[Tempone]

Mumsnet is the wrong place to ask. Very similar thread but where its a woman potentially going to pay more on behalf of her partner and all the replies are saying as long as you pay the csa minimum that's fine. Because you're a man you'll never be told that here!

No it's because his bitterness is showing. This isn't about finances. It's about him not liking the idea if his ex pissing money away in her new so called single lifestyle

[xJoy]

Yeh heaven forbid she has any money left over despite raising their kids and working.

My x was of this mindset. What felt fair to him was that I have no disposable income whatsoever. I work so I do have money. Not as much as he has but because the kids werent ever going to experience real poverty, he knew that extra money would help me.
He thought I should work and be a mother and have nothing to show for my labour. My labour was worthless in his eyes. He could have afforded to have given his kids a more comfortable childhood but he was determined not to as it would have meant I had a few bob after my ft job and being a mother. For that, I deserve to just eke out an existence.
A smarter man would have been fairer. Eldest won't speak to him now. Youngest not bothered but doesn't have a policy of no communication.

[Nimbostratus100]

I think child care alone is going to be well over double what you are offering, so it doesn't touch the sides, really.

[Luredbyapomegranate]

Only way to work out what is fair is to add up all the costs for the kids (clothes, food, care, clubs, % of housing and bills), and aim for 50/50, adjusting according to her reduced income if she is still PT (and fair enough with preschoolers) and your need to get on the housing ladder.

And at the same time project forward for her increased hours at work and changing childcare etc. you could pull figures for average costs and get an accountant to work it out for you.

Despite the fact you aren’t together, you are only recently separated, so as well as covering kid costs you both need roofs over your heads and some disposable income to rebuild your lives.

Future stepdads - well your kids are still using the house, and it will be a bigger house than your ex would need if it were just her and a partner, so yes you still need to contribute to housing and bills (unless you have them 50% of the time, of course.)

You are co-parenting so you are still effectively an extended family so your living costs are entwined - so try not to jump to assuming that every cost that isn’t direct clothes, food or childcare for your kids is funding your exs’ ‘lifestyle’ - by part funding the household and her time to care for them, you are funding proper care for your kids.

[America12]

How much is the child care bill a month ?

[Luredbyapomegranate]

@POTC

Mumsnet is the wrong place to ask. Very similar thread but where its a woman potentially going to pay more on behalf of her partner and all the replies are saying as long as you pay the csa minimum that's fine. Because you're a man you'll never be told that here!

I think it’s highly unlikely all the replies are saying that. I haven’t seen the thread but I certainly wouldn’t.

[CandyLeBonBon]

@xJoy

Yeh heaven forbid she has any money left over despite raising their kids and working.

My x was of this mindset. What felt fair to him was that I have no disposable income whatsoever. I work so I do have money. Not as much as he has but because the kids werent ever going to experience real poverty, he knew that extra money would help me.
He thought I should work and be a mother and have nothing to show for my labour. My labour was worthless in his eyes. He could have afforded to have given his kids a more comfortable childhood but he was determined not to as it would have meant I had a few bob after my ft job and being a mother. For that, I deserve to just eke out an existence.
A smarter man would have been fairer. Eldest won't speak to him now. Youngest not bothered but doesn't have a policy of no communication.

Were we married to the same man?

[BuddhaAtSea]

The fair way, for the children, because they are the priority, is for you two to have 50/50 custody. This way she can up her income, you both contribute equally both financially and in terms of childcare.

Your children are tiny, how much is their nursery a month? At a guess, about £1000 for both of them, 3 days a week. Quite possibly a bit more. So your contribution would hardly allow her a new single lifestyle. On the other hand you do benefit from total freedom to come and go as you please and you are left with what, £5,000 a month?

Do the decent thing, pay for their nursery fees, which will allow their mother to continue to work. It’s not forever, and it’s your choice to earn the money away from home rather than being with them, they didn’t chose this.

Once they’re both in school, do 50/50 on wraparound childcare with her.

Regardless of your relationship with your mum, put your children first. And rest assured no maintenance has EVER paid for the mum’s lavish lifestyle.

[Kanaloa]

Why don’t you apply for full shared care and look after your children 50% of the time. See how far £700 gets you with two toddlers in childcare, bills etc. Well actually it would be half that since you only have them half the time.

For me I couldn’t imagine making an incredibly high wage and trying to pay such a tiny tiny percentage for my children’s care when I basically do no care for them at all.

[Blueberry40]

My ex paid me one fifth of the amount you currently pay towards 2 children…..obviously his income is lower than yours but not that much lower. It was a huge struggle and I had to work a lot to make ends meet. To me, the amount you pay seems very substantial but I suppose it is all relative and all situations differ. Surely it depends on circumstances- nursery costs, mortgage costs etc.

[dad35workingaway]

Yes I can appreciate that I might not hear answers from a man's perspective, which may well align more with my views, but that is why I asked on here. Because it gives me a more realistic indication of what is actually fair under these circumstances.


One thing I haven't got my head around... maybe because the break up is so raw...

I understand if people have children together, it is their combined duty and commitment to make sure the children have everything they need financially. And to make ensure they are offered love equally from both parents.

But how does anything beyond what the children need, mean that one individual should pay additionally beyond their children for their ex partner? I understand that my partner is looking after the girls 4 days a week. But that is her choice. I would choose to look after them through the week too if I wasn't so far away.

If I could make this kind of money living closer to my children, I would move jobs in a heartbeat. I don't choose money over my kids, but to ensure they are setup well in life I'm working around the clock for a few years. It is a sacrifice. I don't intend on working away for good. But I want them to have the best chance in life. And I think don't think money brings happiness, but it certainly presents options.

[Kanaloa]

I would also readjust your mindset about how you would ‘rather she stayed home with my girls.’ If you feel that ‘your girls’ should be cared for at home by a parent then change your lifestyle so you can provide that. But someone who provides no care has no place saying what they’d ‘rather.’

[audweb]

She has to basically have them full time. 200 quid you’re going to quibble over? Would you not rather she had to stress less about food and heating and childcare? She’s not moved a new man in yet, and even if she does you’re still obliged to pay. It’s better to be the bigger person rather than begrudging 200 quid you can afford.

you’re not paying for her newly single lifestyle you’re paying for the kids you both agreed to raise. You talk about doing this with logic, but that comment gave your attitude away