Father needs single mothers perspective

[dad35workingaway]

Hi,

First post on mumsnet, really think I could do with some advice from a female (mother) perspective.

My partner and I have just split. We had been together nearly 8 years. We have 2 girls aged 2 and 3. I've been working away (350 miles) for the last 7 months. I work the shift pattern 12 days on 2 days off, and then 11 days on 3 days off. Every time it's a weekend off I have been travelling home to see my partner and girls.

I earn roughly 58k per year. Upon taking this job our relationship was fragile at that time. My partner is a great mum, she works 3 days per week in a job that pays £1600 per month (net) has additional income from musical talents and receives some help from the government towards childcare.

The financial agreement before leaving home to work away was I would pay £700 per month towards the home. Although I have a decent income, my partner solely owns the house, has a decent car and a very secure job. I have a cheap car, a credit rating that doesn't allow me to get on to the property market at the moment, but at least now a secure job. Apart from this I have nothing else but my monthly pay check. I take around £4800 per month (net). Im also due a pay rise within the next 3 months which will take my monthly net to around £6000.

Owing to the relationship being rocky when I left and both of us holding very different asset values, we agreed the £700 figure with the aim everything for my girls being covered and anything else left over to go towards the household and make ends meet. She didn't want to get married so I was protecting my new found income with the aim of saving and getting on the property ladder and knew that she would be financially okay in her current financial situation.

A few months after I had left for work, my partner started complaining that what I was giving her was too low. After discussion, I upped this to £1000 per month. I was genuinely happy to pay this... as we were together, building a future and thought the additional money would help out with household bills etc. my partner also has roughly £5k in her account.

Since the split (very recent)... things have become quite sour between us. Maybe it's because I'm bitter about the separation (I didn't want it to happen), I feel happily obligated to provide money for my daughters, but not so happy to pay for additional things for the household. Money has not yet been raised but it will be next on the list.

With my salary I get a non taxable allowance. It's roughly £16k per year. This is to cover my accommodation/food. I have been in touch with cms/csa and they have told me that any child maintenance claim made, this money cannot be factored into the maintenance agreement because it's legally considered 'non taxable' and for some reason can't be factored in.
Taking this into account, my taxable salary is lower.

Plugging numbers in the gov calculator. It states I should pay around £650 per month. I'm trying to find a fair middle ground and would like to offer more than this but reduce the payments slightly from what I was previously giving (£1000). Do you think would £800 per month would be substantial and fair, as I think this will cover everything my girls require with them being so young and is more generous that the minimum the government require... I'm just worried she will take the £200 drop badly and things will spiral out of control in our communication.

My girls are the most important factor in all of this but I would rather save the additional £200 to do nice things with them as their father or bank the money in savings for them later on in life. I don't really want to be paying for my ex's new single lifestyle.

What I want to know is am I being unfair in dropping the payments now we are separated. Is the amount a fair amount to pay my ex and is it okay for me to pay for just my children but not additionally to the house they live in when I myself don't live there anymore. I also know the pay rise should mean I pay more but based on principle I don't really want to fund her lifestyle, only what is required for my children to be secure.

I want to be fair but I also feel I need to be firm. Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks

Also, why do you have to drop payments for your kids’ needs so you can save it to ‘do nice things with them?’ Can you not afford out of your £5000 monthly income to do ‘nice things’ with your daughters?

At least admit why you’re doing it, and say it’s because you don’t want your ex having anything leftover once she’s paid out for all essentials.

My ex paid more than required. This enabled me to take our kids on holidays, theatre trips, weekends away, etc. Without this extra money I really would not have been able to justify it. My ex financially is fine too - him giving me extra isn’t leaving him short of money. He also lives with another adult so all of his bills are halved whilst I pay 100% for all bills ie hot water for kids showers, heating, broadband, council tax etc. Just be kind as ultimately it’s all for your kids.

I think what you have to realise is it’s not just paying for the tangible ‘things’ for the children - £800 would cover that, but probably not touch childcare fees. What is significant is the additional costs of housing a family of 3 vs housing a single person. I’m going through a separation and have a 7 year old DS and 5 year old DD. Due to different genders need separate bedrooms (or will soon). 3 bedroom places cost a lot more to mortgage/rent, heat etc. you need to factor that in

I've always thought it must be nice to be able to have a 'fixed cost' for children every month - like non parenting men seem to be able to have.

For the mother it is literally the other way round - you pay out everything for the children and house and then whatever is left over, lucky you.

I always said to my ex to pay what he can justify to the children when they are older. Clearly, he did what you are proposing and paid the absolute bare minumum. Oddly enough these young children grow up and it all comes out in the wash. That doesn't make me happy though. It was literally heartbreaking to see one of my children realise that their dad had spent his life scrimping on money, deliberately, when he really had plenty - it is the biggest insult of all time as a child to have a parent who claimed they had 'given everything they could' and really they hadn't.

Whatever you do, my advice is to be mindful of how you will explain your position to your children when they grown up. Not your ex, your children.

I can see the point of not squabbling over £200
and let it be.. That makes sense.. But where is the line drawn. At 50%? Because although I earn more on a month by month basis. Should then it not only be right that I also have the equal opportunity to own property? Which would be very difficult to do if I was paying 50%.And only having the girls at weekends. Travel already costs a lot and now I will need to find temporary weekend accommodation on top of that when I see them.

And you're right, no one has moved in yet... I don't want her to go without anything, but I suppose you are right in saying that it is her meeting/being with someone else that makes me hold back.. it would be a lie.. but that is something I don't enjoy feeling and I would like to get past this to think in a practical way so it's fair on her too.

Oh, a word of warning. My DD is now an adult and despises her dad. Because she worked out one day that he’s a deadbeat dad. I didn’t know what it meant, I had to Google it. It really upset her that he put his shift work before her, it really upset her that I was working 60h a week to afford to live. She worked out that the rare occasions he was available to have her I would pick up extra shifts to cover her school lunches and school trips.
Don’t do that to your girls, once you’ve gone there, there is no coming back.

I understand that my partner is looking after the girls 4 days a week

No, if you are away, she’s looking after them SEVEN days a week. She’s doing all the dropping off to childcare, calling in sick to work if a child is sick, doing the pick ups, meals, laundry, bedtime, tantrums. It’s all her.
She is picking up your share of the parenting, and you begrudge paying? Why?

Do you not recognise that you are able to work away BECAUSE she is picking up your share of parenting?
Don’t you see that you are putting her in the position of being default parent which severely limits her choices? What do you think that is worth?

Do you really want your children to have a lesser standard of living than you do? If so, why?

From someone who only got £5 a week maintenance up to ds being 14 & then nothing I would snatch your hand off for £800 a month. She chose to break up the relationship, you could have had a very comfortable lifestyle together. I would pay her the £800 & if you are feeling generous agree to paying half to things like new shoes & school uniforms when they start school.

It's really unreasonable of you to be quibbling over about 50 a week when she bears the full cost of having to work reduced hours + childcare so you can be off building your wealth. Also factor in that she pays more in heating, fuel, everything really - for 3 people while you worry about 1.

If you're concerned about another man stepping in and reducing her household costs, cross that bridge when you come to it. Don't know why you're bringing it up now when you've been separated 5 minutes and it might never happen.

If you are feeling generous? You think sharing the costs of your own children’s school clothes is generous? Absolutely tragic. So so sad. Can just imagine him not ‘feeling generous’ because mum has had a date with a man, so she can buy all the kids’ clothes and shoes herself after paying out on all the childcare and bills while daddy sits with a salary of 6k per month.

From someone who only got £5 a week maintenance up to ds being 14 & then nothing I would snatch your hand off for £800 a month. She chose to break up the relationship, you could have had a very comfortable lifestyle together. I would pay her the £800 & if you are feeling generous agree to paying half to things like new shoes & school uniforms when they start school

You have no idea why they broke up. He is away all but 4 days roughly out of a month? If you are feeling generous? They are his children fgs.

I'm a full time working single mum.

Me & ex added up all dc costs (food, clothes, child care, utilities, water etc, and we paid half each. Realistically, two pre-schoolers are going to cost a lot in basic costs and childcare. Perhaps a better approach would be to agree a maintenance amount plus 50% of childcare fees. Then it's easier to adjust when they go to school.

And you need to take the personal bitterness out. How your ex spends her money is none of your business. You have 16 years co-parenting to get through and if you want your girls to be happy, you have to be polite, calm, professional. Don't let them grow up watching their dad being bitter and angry, because your attitude is what they will expect from a future partner.

You state that it costs a lot to travel home to see them and pay for somewhere to stay. That surely is the result of choosing to work away for a larger salary? This can't be used as justification to pay less.
I'm guessing you are offshore and you accommodation is paid for?
Would it be easier if your partner went for 50/50 then you'd have to come home, rent a place locally, have your earning power reduced as you'd have the kids 3/4 days a week so have to pay childcare or not work those days plus be able to do drop off and pick up so only work 9-5 (and definitely not be earning 6k per month)?
If you are only having them every other weekend (including overnights?) You really need to be paying for half of all costs incurred including a roof over their heads, energy bills, food, clothes, childcare etc. I have 2 kids but only 1 in nursery (3 days a week) and that easy comes to £1000 per month (for half of the outgoings)

The best thing to do would be for you to give up the job that takes you away from your DC and get a job, any job, close to them so you can be a hands on father.

50% of everything, school runs, sick days, washing and ironing school uniform, teaching them to read, helping with homework, cuddling them when they're sad. That's the kind of stuff that makes a father, not money in the bank.

But, if you did that you'd get less money, pay little or no CM and their mum would be BETTER OFF.

She may not get any CM, but by not being the sole parent during the week, she could focus on her career, giving her more chance of progression, put more into her pension, take better jobs, potentially with a commute, not needing babysitters or childminders if she travelled on "your" days, not have the fear of covering school holidays and knowing that if her DC gets sick or needs picking up, you could be there.

You would give your ex more opportunities at a life by being a hands on dad, so instead you work away, keep as much money to yourself as possible, have minimal interaction with your kids and limit your ex's choices.

It doesn't matter how much money you pay in CMS, not really, because you're an absent father; your contribution will never be enough whilst you see your kids so irregularly and so little.

My intention here is not to be selfish.

When two people part ways, and in this case it was her choice. At this present time I just fail to understand why then the person who was removed from the relationship without say, must then pay anything beyond the cost of having children. And if I'm prepared to pay more for my children if required, why does that make me wrong, because I'm then not offering to pay for additional things outside the scope of my children. I'm very quickly learning it's very tricky to find that fair middle ground in these situations.

I also didn't take this job after we split. We were an item when I accepted it. And it was throughly discussed and agreed. So moving home immediately from a well paying job, when I know what like I can provide my children with careful planning and have a long term goal to ensure I'm not always a dad that works away...
That is not an easy choice to make. Also.. sitting on 6k per month, someone mentioned, as if that meant life was just easy, that is not the case, because in my case I'm trying to put a large portion of that away with my children's futures at the forefront of my mind. So I live quite a financially humble life in that respect.

She looks after them four days a week? Who does the other three? The fairies?
I would assume it's less of a "choice" on her part and more what she can afford to work once childcare is factored in.
She is raising your children for the price of £1k a month. If you can find any full time nannies or housekeepers for that price I'd be amazed.
Ironic that you are working so hard so your children have a better standard of living in "the future". I presume you've set up savings accounts for them?

I also didn't mention. Which I should have in my original post. When we agreed to me taking on this position...We both shared the view of the family moving nearer to where I work. So the money would be there but the distance would be minimised and we could both be active parents. I was committed to freeing up more days away from work once this happened

Please Op, read this very carefully because this poster has nailed it.

Otherwise, as others have said, sit down with your ex and crunch numbers: extra housing costs for larger property so room for the children, utilities, food, children’s clothes and shoes etc, and agree an amount based on half of that. Then you need to pay half the childcare costs as well, and half for any ‘extras’ later on like music lessons. If her work means childcare costs go up, you still need to pay half. That’s the minimum you can decently do.

I do think it's a shame that opinions saying I'm just an absent father are so quickly thrown out. I really really love seeing my girls. It's not an easy choice.

If it's not for eternity, there is a price on almost anything, for anyone.... if you know that you can provide your children with a great quality of life financially and it can be fast tracked by a few years of working really hard to achieve that.... there is no one size fits all answer for every situation. It is not a simple choice.. as I said, I don't enjoy being absent from my children... but I'm making the choice to ensure they don't have to struggle financially in life. That's my opinion, I would expect people to have many different opinions and make different choices, depending on their circumstances

Work out how much it will cost to raise them in a way you want them to be raised. How much will their clothing cost? Do you budget for some supermarket leggings and a single set of George school uniform or do you, with your £5k a month, think that they should have a little more. Don’t go for the “well, they could just wear a pillowcase from the sue ryder shop with a neck hole cut in it.” Think about the standard of living you want them to have. Do the same with food - how much to provide the diet you want them to eat? Not “what’s the minimum I could feed them on?”. What are their transport costs? How much fuel is used running them about to childcare, social activities and extra curriculars? How much does that contribute to the depreciation of a car? Does the car need to be bigger or more expensive to buy and run than if your ex was single and child free? What about housing? At least one and potentially two more bedrooms are required. How much is that costing? What about bills to heat the larger house so they are comfortable. How much does their laundry cost? How often will the washing machine need to be replaced compared to that of a single occupancy household? What about household repairs? How much is childcare, including food, trips and other extras? And then the big one - what is the impact on your ex wife’s earning potential being the sole cared for your children who you can’t possibly look after because you are making money? Figure out how much all this costs and work out what is fair. Or actually look after them yourself.

Understood. But you also have to understand that our choices impact your ex and her ability to work and provide too.

And this mentality wasn't just for my children either. This was for my family, my ex...

: there was initially a plan to all be able to live all together as a family unit closer to where earning capability meant there would be less financial hardship for all of us.

I've read and commented on this thread and certainly never advocated dad only paying bare minimum cm. And a lot of others didn't either do please don't exaggerate by saying 'all'.

Right… but your choice, which you’re playing off as being for the childrens’ benefit, involves wanting to opt out of all parenting while paying an amount out of your huge salary that won’t even cover childcare for two toddlers, all to spite their mother for leaving you. Why sacrifice being a parent so you can financially support your kids in this way if you don’t actually want them to financially benefit?

But if you are going to do that, you need to consider the effect on your children now, not in five years when you’re able to move closer and start actually being a present parent. Will it benefit them to have a mum who never has a break and is constantly worrying about money? Or a mum who can afford extra help at home when she needs it, and isn’t worried about whether she can afford heating? You need to talk to your ex about whether the move nearer to your work can still happen, too. Does she have a good support network where she is? If not then she may still be ok with the move. It’s going to be hard but it is possible.