Father needs single mothers perspective

[dad35workingaway]

Hi,

First post on mumsnet, really think I could do with some advice from a female (mother) perspective.

My partner and I have just split. We had been together nearly 8 years. We have 2 girls aged 2 and 3. I've been working away (350 miles) for the last 7 months. I work the shift pattern 12 days on 2 days off, and then 11 days on 3 days off. Every time it's a weekend off I have been travelling home to see my partner and girls.

I earn roughly 58k per year. Upon taking this job our relationship was fragile at that time. My partner is a great mum, she works 3 days per week in a job that pays £1600 per month (net) has additional income from musical talents and receives some help from the government towards childcare.

The financial agreement before leaving home to work away was I would pay £700 per month towards the home. Although I have a decent income, my partner solely owns the house, has a decent car and a very secure job. I have a cheap car, a credit rating that doesn't allow me to get on to the property market at the moment, but at least now a secure job. Apart from this I have nothing else but my monthly pay check. I take around £4800 per month (net). Im also due a pay rise within the next 3 months which will take my monthly net to around £6000.

Owing to the relationship being rocky when I left and both of us holding very different asset values, we agreed the £700 figure with the aim everything for my girls being covered and anything else left over to go towards the household and make ends meet. She didn't want to get married so I was protecting my new found income with the aim of saving and getting on the property ladder and knew that she would be financially okay in her current financial situation.

A few months after I had left for work, my partner started complaining that what I was giving her was too low. After discussion, I upped this to £1000 per month. I was genuinely happy to pay this... as we were together, building a future and thought the additional money would help out with household bills etc. my partner also has roughly £5k in her account.

Since the split (very recent)... things have become quite sour between us. Maybe it's because I'm bitter about the separation (I didn't want it to happen), I feel happily obligated to provide money for my daughters, but not so happy to pay for additional things for the household. Money has not yet been raised but it will be next on the list.

With my salary I get a non taxable allowance. It's roughly £16k per year. This is to cover my accommodation/food. I have been in touch with cms/csa and they have told me that any child maintenance claim made, this money cannot be factored into the maintenance agreement because it's legally considered 'non taxable' and for some reason can't be factored in.
Taking this into account, my taxable salary is lower.

Plugging numbers in the gov calculator. It states I should pay around £650 per month. I'm trying to find a fair middle ground and would like to offer more than this but reduce the payments slightly from what I was previously giving (£1000). Do you think would £800 per month would be substantial and fair, as I think this will cover everything my girls require with them being so young and is more generous that the minimum the government require... I'm just worried she will take the £200 drop badly and things will spiral out of control in our communication.

My girls are the most important factor in all of this but I would rather save the additional £200 to do nice things with them as their father or bank the money in savings for them later on in life. I don't really want to be paying for my ex's new single lifestyle.

What I want to know is am I being unfair in dropping the payments now we are separated. Is the amount a fair amount to pay my ex and is it okay for me to pay for just my children but not additionally to the house they live in when I myself don't live there anymore. I also know the pay rise should mean I pay more but based on principle I don't really want to fund her lifestyle, only what is required for my children to be secure.

I want to be fair but I also feel I need to be firm. Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks

So essentially you want to earn 6k and keep 5200 a month to live a good lifestyle, while your ex pays all of her income on raising YOUR children, she is not allowed to use any of her hard-earned money for personal things for her or the house like you are. She also has to take all responsibility for the daily grind and life admin and her career and pension are now limited due to those responsibilities.

You justify this by saying you want to save for a better future for your kids. What better future? They won't give a shit about that when they are older if you have not been around and they have watched their mum struggle and penny-pinch.

Yes but as a single parent she will probably be eligable for some universal credits aswell which bump this up and discount on childcare with UC plus COL payments

I think £7-800 sounds very fair if the legal minimum is £650 she doesn't have a leg to stand on really and I agree I wouldn't want to substitute my exes new lifestyle either especially if she's already hinting someone else could be in the wings! That's the ultimate insult!

When my brother got divorced they had 2 kids they were both required to do an income and expediture exercise and back it up with evidence and the court ruled an amount and said that my brother had to have enough to maintain a home the kids could come to and also have enough to pay his own rent/mortgage and bills - he was shocked how much ex SIL got in tax credits back then!! It was a huge amount and she was very comfortable but going to court sorted it all out and one is at uni now and one doing A levels and it's all worked out ok

It has to be fair to both parties

So your ex owns the house the children and she lives in, has a car and a secure job so she is earning money. Although I realise her 'career' and potential future earnings will be impacted.

On the other hand you have no secure property of your own but have a job that is providing significant earnings.

The sensible thing to do is re-evaluate the cost of the children including clothing, food and childcare and % of the household bills. If it comes up to more than £1k then you obviously need to meet the new amount. If its less then I would just stick to the £1k regardless.

Presumably from what's left over you're putting money away as future savings for the children and what's left is then for you to save for a property.

I do think its important you start to put together money for a property. As you said this current job you're currently doing is for a limited time for you to build u some good money, you never said it was a 'forever' job. So yes you do need to make sure you sticking to this plan and putting enough aside to buy property to house yourself and your children when you move job - presuming you'll be moving close to them so you can then have the children over.

In the UK, the courts have no power over child maintenance unless the paying parent is a very high earner (over 156k a year). You could do a consent order via courts (the name is the clue you have to consent!). Either that order can be superseded after a year if any party opens a case with the CMS.

Pays all her income! Ridiculous. Most of her income is spent on housing, keeping warm, and feeding herself. One of MN's ridiculous fallacies. Pay what CMS says and not a penny more. Treat your children when they are with you and buy what they need. If she wants a lifestyle she can get a better job. Plenty of help to pay for childcare.

I agree, she would of had to pay to house herself and keep warm regardless of having children. I think its only fair that the additional costs of bills is taken into account e.g. a % because with young children you're more likely to stick the heating on, obviously electricity is used more as is water.

I think if she wants more money for herself e.g. clothes and that means working more then that means more childcare so then OP needs to contribute towards that to facilitate it

You are saying you made the choice to earn more money, over having the time and distance to give them a stable life however you are now trying to cut down the amount of money you give them? And still not seeing them too often? So I think you need to decide what benefit you are actually giving your children.

Yes your ex owns her home and that is lucky for her and I am sure she has worked Pre children to get to that point. She shouldn't be punished for that, as far as having a new partner or is also not up-to a new partner to pay for your children and pick up your slack.

Children cost a lot of money, as a single mum all my spare money goes on the children and what they need. As they go to school costa and childcare etc get more difficult.

I work part time but unable to work full time as I would like to and increase my earnings because I have no support from ex and the childcare bill for the children would be more than I could earn and it's impossible to juggle. I think payments should take this into consideration. She is picking up your half of the childcare so you can work away and earn a good wage. If you had to have the girls half the time I wonder how you would do this? Or would you have to give up your job? She is still enabling you to earn. Time is more precious than money so if you want to reduce money I would offer to have the girls more in holidays etc as this is what they need most.

I agree, she would of had to pay to house herself and keep warm regardless of having children

Not as much though! I could happily live without heating, my dc not so much. I could rent a 1 bed property for around £750 pm here, a 2 bed is more like £1100ish. And the food! My teenager eats double what I do. So no, my living costs as a single person would be several hundreds of pounds a month less taking food, heating, hot water, electricity and extra rooms into account.

That is why I said with regards to bill OP will need to pay a % towards to cover the additional spend on bills and food for the children.

As for the house its personal choice what size property to buy. I don't have children but have a 3 bed house, it just happened that I could get a 3bed for just that little bit more than a 2 bed house. So many single people live in 2 beds or more for various reasons.

Being away a bout 80% of the time is going to put a strain on any romantic relationship. It doesn't matter that you agreed it before, the reality would be different. My dp works away 2 nights a week and I do get resentment sometimes being the one at home doing everything. Your lifestyle choice will have had an impact on your relationship, even though you want to blame her for ending it.

You don't say how she got a property, so I will assume earnings, family or a mix of both. You say you want a property, but your lack of savings before meeting her were down to you, so you can hardly say that is unfair. You have also avoided the question many people have asked about childcare costs that allow her to work three days a week.

Ultimately you thought that 1k was a reasonable amount two months ago, so nothing has changed to stop it being reasonably now. You earn three times what I do, so ought to have some spare. Why should I have my taxes going towards universal credit for your children to get childcare costs covered when you earn so much more than me?

I do agree that if she gets another partner in future then costs should be reviewed, but you say that isn't happening at the moment, so it is not relevant.

Housing, groceries, and utilities for an adult and two small children costs much more than a small studio flat for just one adult. That adult also must pay childcare costs (huge expenditure) so that they can work, limiting their potential income in several ways. I’m sure you do know that, since it’s the sort of basic logic a three year old could comprehend.

An after tax income of £6k/month equates to about £9k/month gross. The CMS on that is about £1200/mth if your daughters stay with you one night per week on average. It will be more if they have no overnights with you. So that is what you need to pay. It's generally considered the minimum and really quite poor form to try and negotiate less. I would suggest to your ex she go through CMS if you start haggling with her over it. If you don't pay it willingly the CMS can take it directly and will charge you an additional 20%.

If you don't want to pay as much you could also choose to have them stay with you more often. And bear the brunt of the effect that has on your work availability (as your ex does).

"If I could make this kind of money living closer to my children, I would move jobs in a heartbeat. I don't choose money over my kids, but to ensure they are setup well in life"

You're contradicting yourself. You could get a job that's closer and look after your children, but if you're demanding "this kind of money" then choosing money over your kids is exactly what you're doing.

And if you're giving them such a tiny proportion of what you're getting how exactly is it setting them up well in life?

You've got it all back to front. Their quality of life will be far more improved by having a father who is present in their lives, who they know loves them and is there for them. And the early years really really count – you won't be able to make up this time later: they'll be lost to you. Not through anything their mother does: it's just that no child can have a meaningful relationship with someone they hardly ever see.

Please have a rethink.

But you will be an absent father. My kid's dad was like you, chased money at the expense of time with his actual kids. Didn't provide child support though.

They are adults now and have no interest in him because he never had a real relationship with them as children. They say he just feels like an adult they sought of know but have no emotional attachment to. He's tried multiple times to contact them but they aren't a bit interested.

They won't care about what money you provide them with and once they are grown, you can't go back and make it right. you have one shot at developing a lifelong relationship with your children and that involves investing time in them.

There's no price on a parents presence to a child.

Obviously there is a cost to the parent.

Kids don't just value monetary cost

I was wondering about this, if 6k is the net then 9k gross per month sounds about right. Minus the 16k deduction for his housing and whatnot then and bearing in mind maintenance is calculated on gross not net pay, say 1 night per week contact which would be about right averages out over the year then isn’t that about 92k gross?

So about £1050ish maintenance per month to pay.

Apologies if I’ve got those calcs wrong OP but if they’re about right then I’d keep paying the £1000 and offer half towards the childcare.

Please remember you won’t be funding your ex, you’ll be funding your children. Making their life easier and infinitely more secure. That still leaves you with a hefty chunk of money to put away for a house deposit, savings and enjoyment of your life.

I think you have to ask yourself what you would do if she also decided to move away from your children, for work. I'm sure she could significantly raise her earning potential if she were able to move around to get the best package and could be flexible and work long hours.

I suppose boarding school might be an option? How much does boarding school cost? Maybe that should be a benchmark for how much you give to your ex for organising your children's lives and being available to them 24/7.

paying for my ex's new single lifestyle. 😂

Yeh coz she's going to be going out all the time getting pissed and going on fancy holidays, getting her hair and nails done every week, when she's the sole carer of two toddlers and also working.

OP, I say this with genuine curiosity and not to disparage you.
Within the next 3 months your take home pay will be £6000 per month so you wish to spend 1/6th of your monthly income on your children?
Actually think about that.
Do you think their mum is spending 1/6th of her income on them or would you imagine it is more?

There’s an inherent misunderstanding among non resident parents that every single penny of maintenance must be ‘spent on the children’. It is called ‘maintenance’ for a very specific reason to actually maintain your children i.e ensure they live in a home that has heat and electricity and is safe and not a health hazard and to spend the majority of their time with a parent who is not driven to madness by constant worry over a lack of finances. By this logic children could be sitting in designer clothing and all the toys they could wish for paid for with ‘money for the children’ while living in a shitty house with a mum who is fretting about paying an electricity bill.
It can be very difficult to stomach but the reality is maintenance is partly to fund a lifestyle but realistically it’s the lifestyle you wish for your children to grow up in.

As with so many things in life you need to sit down and truly put yourself in your ex’s shoes to work out whether what your proposing is fair and if it were the other way around would it be an arrangement you would be happy with?
we don’t actually know from your post what her monthly income or outgoings are from your post? Do you?
Without either us or you knowing that it’s impossible to say what is ‘fair’? Ask her and get the full picture of where both are at as your starting point and go from there.

I have been single for over 15 years now and have brought up 3 children with no financial input from their father although he has seen them weekly. I can tell you this much: they don’t think very much of him because of it. They understand the tax payer has supported them alongside my ridiculously long working week as a teacher, examiner and tutor. They know which side their bread was buttered and no amount of money on his side has tempted them to spend more time there. They have not wanted for anything, but they do see the house needing redecorating, the 30 plus year old boiler, and as I get older, they will also understand that I gave them what I did by reducing my pension contributions. There has been a long term impact on my life which is unfair and worrying.

You can only be forced to pay what the CMS say. I would suggest you see that bigger picture, the cost of childcare, the complexity and sheer hard work of bringing up children alone, the disparity in incomes and the long term relationship with your children. Be generous. You don’t have to be over-generous but swallow your pride, your thoughts of funding ‘lifestyle’, and look beyond it all. Your adult children will be very glad you did.

I dont think he's coming back

If you have been paying £1000/mo when you were "part of the household" why would this figure be any less now?

Food, bills, petrol etc have all gone up in recent months (and continue to rise). Extra curricular activities cost money. Many have certain uniforms or equipment costs and of course the time and the petrol to get there. If your ex has reduced her hours to 3 days from 2, not only does this save you money on external child care costs, but it will be limiting her chances of being promoted at work whereas you have a promotion in the near future. Reduced hours will affect her savings and her pension contributions will be down by 2/5 which she will likely never recover. Consider these things before you assume that your "extra £200" will be "funding her lifestyle".

In your own words "My partner is a great mum".

Would you rather your children live with a mother who is constantly struggling and worried about money or have a slightly more comfortable life?

"I would rather save the additional £200 to do nice things with them as their father"

Please don't hoard your money just so you can be a Disney Dad once a month.

I'm neither single nor a mum, but two things jump out regarding your mindset:

• You don't seem to acknowledge that divorced parents have equal responsibility for looking after their children. When you're together it's fine for one person to earn the money and the other to physically take care of the children, but that goes out of the window as soon as you split up - now, you can only earn that money because your ex is enabling you to do so
• You seem to place your ultimate value as a father on financial provision for your children. While this is true to a certain extent in that poverty as a child is highly damaging, at the level you're earning at it is doing more damage to your children that you rarely see them and your ex is burning out than it is you clearing a grand extra a month. Please reconsider your priorities for your children's sake