Dissatisfied by expat life

[Froginboilingwater]

Our family lives in Asia as an expat, and I'm increasingly feeling that this isn't good in the long run. I wonder if I'm "wasting away" through lack of social contact, career opportunities and all the other things that add to a full life (hence my username).

To give a sense of our situation, I'll provide some background. DH, our two children, and I moved to Asia through his work. Prior to this, we spent five years living in Norway, also through DH's work. DH is German and I'm British, and he works for a big multi-national (albeit one headquartered in Germany). Materially we have a good life (free housing, good salary, schooling paid for, and we have built up a good financial buffer), but I feel like I may regret this in the long-run.

I knew when I got together with DH that this career was his dream, and to begin with, it was exciting. I met him in Germany, and I'm not averse to travel and seeing the world. There have been good things about being in Norway and now Asia, with some travel (which is now easier after Covid), so I don't want to knock it all.

I've been able to get remote work (I'm not allowed to work in the country) which also is quite interesting. I don't really have progression with it, but I can use to my technical skills to some extent. But I see former colleagues and friends getting promotions, and I can't help feel jealous.

DH can go into the office and meet with his German colleagues, will visit factories of suppliers around the country and has a demanding life. I on the other hand, work at home, and while I do things like go to the gym, or take my laptop to a cafe to do some work, I feel very isolated. Because of my remote work, I end up working late hours to have meetings after the children have gone to bed.

The other problem is that after our posting, the plan would be to go back to Germany, where I'd still be a foreigner. Living overseas, I don't get an opportunity to really practice German at any great level, and I don't feel I'm integrating or building a network in Germany. I feel at this rate, I'll always be an outsider, a ghost, whether I'm in Germany, or on another posting.

I look at British expat groups, but it seems very much about wives going for cocktails in the middle of the day (sorry if that seems unfair), and that's not me. I have technical skills.

I love my DH, I value his career, I realise it's important to him, but with all this, I also feel a little distant from his. We have two very different experiences of our expat life, and I don't know if I can do this for another 20-30 years.

Are there positive steps I can take to change my mindset, or is the problem simply too great? I wanted to post here because I think in AIBU/Chat, I'd get responses of "go home", but here, there are people who have lived the expat life, and like me, do see the benefits and drawbacks.

I think this is probably a good path to be considering for now. We've made a decision and we can't immediately throw it up all up in the air, but we have to be realistic about the future and plan more seriously.

Is it worth thinking about moving you and the kids back to Germany ahead of your DH's posting finishing? My sibling who works in China has effectively done that although it was partly driven by the oldest child being at uni in the UK when the pandemic started, so they didn't see him for years. The middle child was going to be leaving to start uni in the UK when the very severe lockdowns came in in Shanghai and after that I think my sister-in-law put her foot down and said she was leaving. So she and the children are in the UK now, my brother will return when his posting finishes.

It doesn't seem unreasonable for you to want to start the process of putting down roots in Germany if that is where you're planning to live long term. The sooner the kids are able to be immersed in the language and culture the better. And you can start to build a community.

I'm not suggesting you up sticks right now, but consider it before the end of this posting.

I've been a trailing spouse. It was awful. I had everything on paper....wealth, huge apartment slap bang in the centre of a European city, a cleaner, all the time in the world etc. I came home (and ended the relationship but that's a different story). I was bored rigid. Nothing felt like mine. No job to give me structure and focus, no friends, no access to my favourite pursuits etc. It was a life of total privilege but not of things that mattered to me and I just couldn't do it.

Unless his job is in Asian and German soil sampling, he can climb his career ladder in the UK? He might be unhappy to move companies, but there needs to be some compromises here. You have compromised your career and years out of the country in isolation.

FYI my db is in a technical IT job where English the language of business so the fact he didn’t speak any German didn’t matter a jot for years and years - he lives in a city, his entire group of friends are absolutely fluent in English. Both his kids have friends who also speak fluent English (the younger kid is actually in a school that teaches entirely in English whilst following German curriculum).

The reason German became importantto my DB was social: to be able to watch Tv, go to the theatre, speak to older in-laws who didn’t have fluent English, to feel a sense of cultural belonging in the country he had chosen to live in. And it’s just polite if you live somewhere permanently to learn the language isn’t it. He is now a happy hybrid English-German. He got divorced in his late 40s and his best friend died- he has built a social circle and his living his best life. So don’t fear the unknown future. It doesn’t have to be as scary and lonely as you make it sound.

Hi OP, German here who's also worked abroad in various countries, on my own ticket, so totally get your frustration with the expat wives scene (typical first question: Sooo... what does your husband do here?)

I'm a bit concerned at your essentially giving up your career for your husband. Germany is a traditional housewife culture - female labour market participation was still very low as recently as the late 80s. Percentages have gone up a lot but it's still mostly part-time work as the (much improved) childcare provisions don't really enable two full time working parents, especially once you get to primary school age. At the same time, divorce legislation has changed so even if wives continue to give up much of their earning power this really isn't reflected in settlements anymore. And I assume you're married under German law?

You probably should have had some kind of agreement drawn up when you agreed to go on the posting. I'd still try and talk to a family lawyer (Fachanwalt für Familienrecht) on your next trip back to see if there's ways to give you some more personal security independently of the marriage.

Second, you really really need to look into pension provision, both for the case of retirement in Germany and in the UK. Can you get your British pension paid out in Germany? Have you ever worked in Germany and thus have started building up pension claims there? If so, you can call the pension authorities for advice on voluntary contributions and also on how to get pension credit for your kids - make sure to mention the posting by a German employer.

Third, I'd look now at maximizing your employment prospects once you do decide to go back to Germany. Language is a factor but with a technical background- you don't specify - and depending on location often isn't an obstacle as many firms will accommodate English speakers. ( In fact, Mandarin might be just as good an investment if you've got the stomach for it?) But I'd put out some feelers for prospective employers and what they're looking for. Are DH and you in the same industry? If so, maybe even chat with people there for background, or talk to other firms present in your location. As pp say, maybe there's extra qualifications you could work on while abroad. Contact Germany-based firms in your area of expertise and see if there's any freelancing they'd be interested in. Depending on your prior CV, are you too senior for a Praktikum of a couple of months if DH will take care of the kids for that period? Germany us very much an engineering culture so that's good for you, and German students often build up industry contacts long before graduating. You might be able to make something similar work for you.

I was in this situation for many years and felt all the same things you are. No opportunity to put down roots, making friends with other expats started to feel futile as they would all leave after a year or two. Couldn't work as didn't have the right visa. Saw my career dwindling away after so much investment in my education & early career. Struggled with learning the language as my unhappiness sucked away the motivation to. It was a big contributing factor to my marriage ending. ExH had all the power and would not consider returning to the uk for a long time, it made me very resentful, and power imbalances like that are not good for relationships.

I would ask him to agree it's your choice where you go for the next move, and perhaps return to the UK then. Problem with going to Germany is if you are unhappy there, unless he agrees, you cannot return to the uk with the children. And as much as you think he would never do that, you don't know, it's a huge risk to take. Being trapped in another country, no family, poor language skills, no career, you're very vulnerable.

does your DH speak German to your children? will they integrate back into Germany well? How do you communicate with your in-laws?

in your position, knowing how long you have left in Asia and the knowledge you'll be going to Germany (presumably you will apply for citizenship, as post Brexit finding work could be tricky unless you are very niche - although this is changing all the time) gives you a timetable.

How about studying something on the OU? Either for fun or to build up qualifications for a post-Asia career? The obvious choice for a lot of people is TEFL, would that appeal to you?

But your DH needs to help you out here. What do his colleagues' partners do for fun or contact with others? Usually wherever I've been there is an American Women's Club that you can join, is there one near you?

arghh it is bloody annoying. There is a MASSIVE difference between the two,
I'm an immigrant to Germany.
OP will be an immigrant to Germany if they move back and plan to stay permanently and she takes citizenship.
They are both expats in Asia because they work there for a set period with the intention always of leaving.

In a nutshell

Are you studying Chinese? I work in China and know a few trailing spouses who can't/don't work. The ones who are happy have mostly Chinese friends, speak the language, and do lots of volunteering/clubs etc locally. The ones who mostly just have English-speaking friends seem isolated and boring.

Also, speaking the language would mean you could get a job here. As long as you have a bachelor's and two years experience in the field, you can get a work visa for anything professional/technical.

I know your long-term plan is Germany, but 3 more years here is plenty of time to get something beneficial out of your experience (and also give something back if you want to) while still studying German on the side.

This is some excellent advice. Thank you!

I started, and then stopped during the lockdown (stuck at home for two months) and I haven't felt the motivation to start again.

The problem is, or at least I think it is that I have limited time - I work nearly full time, I am trying to get out of the house to go to the gym, I just did a short online course in my professional topic, and I have only so much time to learn German and Chinese. And I have two small children.

I could try and give up work, but that is the one thing I'm sorting of holding onto.

Ah been there, got the tee-shirt

So first off find the other expat wives who don't 'just' do brunches. Trust me they are there. Personally I have found walking clubs are usually good for this, if you love history check out English talks at museums (sadly I don't think many of the Chinese museums encourage expat docents but do a search), expat run charities can also be a more hands on way to make friends, and British Council or American and A/NZ are usually quite good for talks/events and they rarely care about your nationality. You don't need to say which city but obviously it will help if it's a tier 1 to find these things.

Studying is an option and OU is excellent for expats as it's very geared up on line. Depending on your interests maybe something there but that's mainly for busyness and interest as it's not very social. For social see TELF as a good option and can set up options in Germany to teach if that's your thing or contact the German embassy there will be an association doing German lessons, learning alongside your kids will help if you do find Germany is still a long term option.

But you do need to sit and talk to your DH and explain it's not working for you. China can be a tough posting, HK is easier especially as you can work as a Dependent, Singapore is easy but no DP working as well. A MNC may have flexibility depending on the role and they will care - most are more geared up to postings being about the whole family not just the worker.

Sorry that sounded very 'chin up and crack on' but actually short term that probably is the case to get more settled. Then longer term chat with DH re plans.

You are pretty unempathic person to nitpick a word. this question. Clearly Op is struggling, she is not there to correct or explain use of a word. And I say that as am Asian living in Europe.

Op, I understand you feel isolated. A sense of community is important. I also live similar expat/ immigrant life and don't have a social life.
A hypothetical question- if you were to select a place to live, only from your point of view, where would it be? UK?

OP, I completely understand where you're coming from. I had an opportunity to possibly move to Asia, with DH as the trailing spouse and we decided it wasn't for us. Visits were great, but we didn't want that lifestyle.

The good news is that I actually disagree that when you return you Germany you'll always feel invisible. The biggest issue is that by the time you return, you will be older, your children will be older and integration will be harder. I have German friends and relatives (and I also worked for a big German multinational) and I think it is possible to integrate in Germany and also very possible to find a larger English or English-speaking community, albeit it will take work. So I think the conversation I'd be having with DH is when to move to Germany - possibly sooner than originally planned so that you can integrate when your children are still young and there's more opportunities to meet people - and where exactly to move to. Because that's going to make a big difference to your overall experience. I would be researching that very proactively right now. eg, I like Frankfurt but personally, if I moved to Germany I'd be looking at Berlin or Munich because they seem to be cities that I think I could make more friends in.

Alternatively, if he's working for a big multinational, perhaps you could move back to the UK or another English speaking country where you might find it culturally easier and he will still benefit from the fact that he loves his work etc?

I was a trailing spouse for 13 years but didn’t stay in one place for as long as you - max 2.5 years anywhere and some as short as 9 months. Which meant my “role” was family relocation, settling and integration as well as being SAHM mum. So I got a lot of variety that way. We were also with a big multinational, ours was very supportive of spouses and had an active social scene (similarly no work visas available). Benefits of being a very large company is there was a big mix of people. Some were the lunch set (not my scene), some golf and tennis (again not for me) but I did always find my niche.

For me, it was the book clubs (sometimes joined existing ones, sometimes started one - one was a toddler book club, went to each others houses with the kids and set them up and tried to talk about the book). I joined the choir (not the best singer but liked the companionship and disciple).

Best thing I did was become a guide leader, instant friendship group and intellectually stimulating - I was distinct commissioner overseas and running an organisation for 100 girls, there was a lot to do.

We stopped when youngest was about to go into secondary school, when he realised he had been to 8 schools by then and thought that was enough. I also said I wanted to prioritise me and I trained to be a teacher (guiding helped a lot here). I had been mum and trailing for long enough - now it was my turn.

I will add though that having kids aged 2 & 4 I think is the toughest age in terms of having an identify outside of being a mum. It has been 5 years of all consuming mumminess and I just wanted to scream ‘what about me?’ And I felt I had lost a sense of who I was as an individual. That did all return in time.

No, chin up and crack on is not bad advice for now. I'm a big girl, we've made a decision as a family, and we can't "throw in the towel", but planning ahead, we need a serious conversation.

I know how this feels and it's hard - my husband also has a "greedy job," and while I'm still managing to work full time in finance with two young kids, it's in a less prestigious, lower paying job than I previously had so that I have the flexibility to deal with everything around the house and kids.

Have you spoken explicitly to your husband about this? My husband and I make a point of making sure we openly discuss what sacrifices I am making in order to enable his successful career (he's recently made partner at his firm which was a big milestone). We didn't just let him go for his career at the expense of mine because he's the man - I basically didn't love my career as much as he did, so it didn't feel like as much of a sacrifice, and while we used to earn similar amounts, longer term his career had a much higher salary range which we wanted. But again, this was all a result of explicit discussion and decision making, rather than me silently slipping into the role of "secondary spouse," so I feel ok with it knowing I chose it. Nevertheless, I wish childcare and society were not organised in such a way as to necessitate this trade off in the first place!

Your husband has been able to achieve what he has thanks in no small part to your sacrifices; make sure he's aware of that, rather than taking for granted that a wife will step back to enable her husband's success, and lay out a path to make sure this imbalance is redressed in other ways within your life and marriage to ensure you feel satisfied and don't build up resentment.

This article is a really interesting exploration of this topic; the quote that really resonated with me is, "Women don’t step back from work because they have rich husbands. They have rich husbands because they step back from work."

www.nytimes.com/2019/04/26/upshot/women-long-hours-greedy-professions.html

Slightly different as I'm in an expat but in an English speaking country and we both have equally important jobs but I do get the difficulty of feeling like you're living the other person's life. Things that helped me were building my own network away from his (schoolfriends and family) with other mums and colleagues mostly.

I think moving back to Germany is an added challenge as I find it quite a cold place to non German's and it's hard to speak German when their English is often so good that they default to it even when you try. Would he be open to returning to your home country?

Rather than “learn German”, which can perhaps feel amorphous, perhaps look into German GCSE as a goal to aim for - it will also give a grounding in grammar etc which learning conversational German might not offer.

Also if finances aren’t an option, perhaps work less and get out of the house more - even if starting by volunteering, so that you have more outside contact .

*if finances aren’t a concern

So posters here would describe a Romanian builder living in the UK who intends to return home in a few years as an "expat" would they? And rich British retirees living in Spain until they die would definitely not be "expats" but "immigrants"?

I was never comfortable calling myself an "expat" when I lived and worked (temporarily) abroad. Because let's face it, the connotations are very definitely "superior British person, not one of those dirty poor foreign immigrants".

Easier to say than to do but in your position I would do the following:

• turn up to some ex-pat wives' groups. Don't assume they are all witless cocktail sippers. They may be highly intelligent and bored out of their minds and longing to do something. Maybe set up a book group or even just go running or play tennis with them
• consider doing an OU degree. You will have contact with fellow students, even if only online most of the time, but you get to fly back for summer schools to UK
• get to know some local women and families. Immerse yourself in the culture of the country where you are. Do voluntary work or set up a task force to campaign for something valuable in the community.
• develop your online work - ask yoru employer if there are areas where you could develop or progress. Or look for similar work in other companies that might expand your skills
• Choose a couple of skills (not work) that you have always intended to master and really focus on them. Learning fluent German is an obvious one.

I lived in Beijing a few years ago and hated it, but the one thing that did help was joining the expat groups- we did lots of things which admittedly I wouldn’t have done them anywhere else but I met such a nice group of ladies who were so supportive. China is a particularly hard place to be as you cannot work and culturally it is so different so I really needed the network of friends.

If the Romanian is in the uk on a temporary visa which is particular to a job role, and means she can’t receive benefits, free schooling, healthcare, right to vote, and then leaves when the contract ends then yes an expat. British people retired to Spain, France or wherever are immigrants.