Lesbians: would you date a trans woman?

[Roxietrees]

As a lesbian, I’ve come from the perspective a few years back (when I had a large social circle of other lesbians, some trans men and trans women) of fully supporting all trans rights and the idea that TWAW, to now a few years down the line where I’ve done a total U turn. Due to hearing of a few experiences of lesbian friends & acquaintances who have felt pressured to date trans women, and if they rejected the advances of a trans woman being told they were transphobic by “just reducing a person to their genitals”. While I fully believe in human rights for all and think trans people deserve to be respected and accepted, I don’t believe it’s transphobic to, as a lesbian, only fancy biological women. And I don’t believe lesbians should have to put up with abuse and being called transphobic. IMO it’s erasing and invalidating homosexuality (which, for those of us who were teens pre 2000 was often a very difficult thing to accept and learn to accept in ourselves). Just to now be told “people’s genitals don’t matter”. Fuck that! It makes me sad that some young lesbians are feeling pressured to have sex/relationships with people with penises just because they’re scared of looking like bigots/transphobic.

What I find interesting is that every hardcore lesbian trans rights supporter I know has never ever dated or expressed any romantic interest in a trans woman. If they believe that they are genuinely woman then why wouldn’t they be interested in dating them just like they would any other women?

Totally climbing aboard team LGB Alliance! But to be clear I don’t hate trans people, I believe their struggle is real and that they deserve a life free from discrimination. However, as a lesbian my first priority is always going to be protecting the rights of my own community.

Would be interested in other opinions

"Reducing a person to their genitals" whoever said that hasn't really thought much before opening their mouth. Sexuality has a lot to do with genitals! It is NOT transphobic to be turned off by a penis.

I'm bisexual and open to the idea. I have two lesbian friends who are in relationships with TW. Was at a festival/retreat for sapphic women recently and there were quite a few cis/trans couples there. Really lovely vibe. I don't know where people are encountering these people who call you transphobic for saying no. I've turned down all sorts of people including transwomen over the years, including when I was exclusively dating women and have never seen that attitude in real life. Maybe it depends how you say it? When someone asks you out it's pretty unusual to give an explanation for the no, surely? You wouldn't say 'no because you're old/fat/poor/ugly/short/trans'...just 'no thanks!'.

I'd really like to hear more about these real life encounters and wonder if they're largely online.

@Sainttropezz so a transwoman who says they are lesbian, is in fact actually a straight man? But one who prefers to identify as a woman? I can sort of follow that, but he has a male partner so that's the confusing part (for me!)

But none of it matters to anyone else other than themsleves, it just sounds confusing 😂

Somebody started up that "butch lesbian" argument out of nowhere last week on something. It is of course nonsense because we do know who is who and what is what.

Coming back to the question in the OP.
Why would one? What do they offer a real woman? Whatever it is it is ersatz.

Like a woman. I know several butch lesbians, including my boss. They behave like women, just look butch. It's not difficult to imagine.

I know it happens in student groups and it tends to be the friendship circle/flatmates etc so the pressure is even greater because the young lesbian is then endangering her membership of her social circle. Pleased to hear it is less of an issue for adults, hopefully the people who do this will grow out of this sort of bullying.

The only transwoman I ever knew - dated a gay man.

I'm probably going to get flamed but I do think women "behave" differently to men. They generally walk differently and sit differently for example. Personally I don't think that's a derogatory opinion (to either sex). The few transwomen I've encountered are obviously men for a variety of reasons, including their "gait". Or am I missing something?

Yep, students are going to be a little more woke/outspoken than the general population. Twas ever thus. Hopefully anyone who was going around telling trans people they won't date them in a mean/blunt way has grown out of that too! Pretty unnecessary.

Nope.

Is that faux naiveté or have you never been on Mumsnet before? Do you really think you'll get flamed for calling transwomen men? I think it's horrible and transphobic. That's an opinion that will get you flamed on here.

We are male or female fleshbags

In what way do they behave like women? I can't identify what the behaviour is that somehow seems womanly?

I'm a woman. I get up, shower, get dressed, cook meals and eat them, moan about stuff, laugh about stuff, argue and agree, watch TV and movies, like art - none of it feels like womanly behaviour to me, it's just stuff I do.
So - what does 'behaving like a woman' consist of please?

They use name calling because they don’t like the rejection. Well tough, they don’t get to dictate who lesbians date, end of. They use the ‘transphobia’ to try and gaslight them (as if by magic it would make someone change their mind)

Reminds me of a time I was in NY Times Square and we’d be warned about bad head opportunists bombarding tourists try to sell stuff. We just said no no no to anyone than looked in our direction. Then this man tried to sell us a CD - we didn’t stop we kept walking and said no thanks. He then shouted something along the lines of “I bet it’s because I’m a black man… racist’… can’t remember the exact thing and I was quite upset by the remark because of course it was nothing of the sort. It was only when my husband told me to get a grip that I thought he’s right, he was trying to manipulate us because we didn’t want to by his shitty tatt!

No, not faux naivety at all. I was refering to previous comments about women "behaving differently". Personally I think women do behave differently to men. A lot of posters earlier in the thread seemed to think this was an insulting and perhaps patriarchal concept. On the subject of transwomen being women, mammals can't change sex anymore than someone can colour their skin and claim black heritage. Would the black community be "phobic" to call them a white person who had adopted a black appearance?

Women and men behave and function differently psychologically, eg how we express emotions, and studies show cognitive differences between sexes, this would fall in scope of ‘ behaving like a women’

But the reason women walk and sit differently is due to physiological differences in musculoskeletal structures. It’s not social conditioning. Women walk the way they do because their bodies are shaped differently!

Yes, I agree 100%. But a lot of earlier posters seemed to be rather sneery at the suggestion that women "behaved" differently. I suppose it depends on what you mean by behave, although personally I think we do act differently in general. I suspect I'm digging a hole for myself so I'll get my coat.

I couldn't swear that I wouldn't be attracted to a trans man as a straight female. Adian Dowling ? Hot as hell. But if imagine in the flesh he has a much smaller and slighter frame. And I'll be honest, as cruel as it sounds, I'm not sure I could get over the fact that I know In my heart of hearts that deep down he is female. Also it's what down below. I'm not sure I could cope with either a vagina or a hashed up fake penis that doesn't work. I'm afraid that's the truth. Although, still , he's stunning and I can totally see why his wife married him .

This is exactly why transpeople need their own labels and need to stop hijacking other people's identities.

Your relative is NOT a lesbian a or in a lesbian relationship. As soon as your TW relative breaks up with their TW partner, they'll both move back onto the dating scene looking for men, as they're both attracted to men (or TW). They won't be "lesbians" anymore.

You can't be a lesbian temporarily.

Jeepers creepers, that's a mindfuck.

@ginasevernI suspect they were distinguishing social behaviour and physical behaviour. SOME women behave in what society has deemed to be ‘feminine’ behaviour - mainly because such behaviour curries favour with men and yields a variety of what might be perceived as favourable outcomes, including, but not limited to: promises of safety and financial security, social capital, avoidance of physical abuse, etc etc. However MABY women, either refuse to adopt these socially constructed behaviours because ultimately they only serve women through the narrow lens of male approval. Basically, pp are referring to feminine stereotypes. You brought up physiology. THAT’s why people were disputing the idea that women behave differently because they’re women. They don’t, they behave differently because society (through patriarchal standards) has deemed that feminine behaviour is the only acceptable way for women to behave.

Ah right. I understand. No, I literally meant that women (generally) walk and sit differently because of our physical differences.

@FruityCider this is happening regularly amongst teenagers/early 20s from my experience of friends with teenage daughters who date girls and people I know from work. It might not be an issue for over 25s who are more secure in themselves, their sexuality, their values, and know how to say no

I actually would say that you were a lesbian, or at least entitled to use that title should you wish to do so. Not that you need to put a label on it. It's probably the closest match.