Another teenage girl who want to be a boy

[allatsea123]

This is my first post on mumsnet! I have read and reread other post on girls with gender dysphoria and have gained a lot of support, so here goes! Our daughter told us about 6 months ago that she felt she should be a boy and the only way forward was to transition fully. She was 14 then, now 15. I was totally devastated and utterly lost. I had felt that something was on the horizon as she had asked for a hair cut and started wearing boyish clothes a few months previous. We didn't know what to do so suggested she give herself 6 months to think about things. We did take her to the GP though as I thought counselling might help. She was referred to CAMHS and the psychologist told us that she wasn't convinced by our daughter and that we should come back to her in a year or so. Thank god for the voice of reason, I thought! We did get referred for counselling which was not helpful because she wasn't given any strategies to help deal with her feelings. The last six months have seen her become socially isolated, depressed and she has developed an eating disorder. We are now back at CAMHS with the eating disorder nurse and hopefully soon for a more thorough assessment of her mood, OCD behaviours etc. I completely fell apart at the beginning but seem to have convinced myself that this, although very real for her at the moment, won't persist and so am better able to cope. I believe this is sudden onset gender dysphoria, she never showed any discomfort with being a girl until a few months before she told us. as a small child she was very girly, she became a tom boy for a while a primary school but never asked for boys clothes. As soon as she left primary school it was earrings, make up, hair styles etc. She embraced puberty and it doesn't seem long ago she was moaning that I wouldn't buy underwired bras. I feel as if she was struck with a thought one day that has taken hold and drawn her in. She is sad, lonely and lost and so are we. We still use her name and refer to her as she because although we know she doesn't like this she won't let us tell anyone, even her siblings so we have no choice. I know that she is totally convinced that the only way to be happy is if someone can wave a magic wand and she can leave the house tomorrow a boy. How that would help I have no idea as she would then be a girl in a boys body! She has never had any typically male interests, has an older brother but never shown an interest in his things and all her friends are girls, how could she relate to people if she was a boy? I don't know how to help her though this. We have said that we will support if she still feels this way as an adult but I can't give permission for any medical interventions when I am not convinced that this is a permanent thing. She has always been one to reinvent herself every now and then and I suppose that is what I am hoping for, that she finds a way back to being happy being herself. But how???

Has she had girlfriends or boyfriends before? I think it's crazy that so many teenagers are transitioning, many of whom haven't explored their sexuality yet, in the fully functioning body they've got! I have read that many post op trans people are disappointed with the surgery results.

How does she feel about the fact she'll have to use male spaces? Public toilets, changing rooms etc. Does she understand that as men and women grow up and settle down, the dynamics change? How differently she'll be perceived as a man, than she is now as an androgynous young woman? Does she have any clue how men communicate when (they think) there aren't any women around?

Does a trans penis look and function like a normal penis? I assume ejaculation wouldn't be possible, and she/he wouldn't have a clit, so she/he could she orgasm? Do they add fake testicles? If not, it'll soon be apparent to any potential partners she wasn't born male.

I really think if this had been a thing when I was 14/15, I'd have very susceptible to it, as a "way out", a way to make things better. I became a goth, self harmed, took drugs, drank a lot, questioned my sexuality and experimented etc for a good two years, before realising that my sexuality had nothing to do with my angst, just me trying to make sense of it, thinking being lesbian might be why I always felt so different and out of place. Hormones are bastards sometimes, and I realise now I was actually seriously depressed. But I'm happy in myself/my body now. I just turned 25, and what you're all saying about the still growing until then/feelings and attitudes changing is totally true. I've never felt so at ease with myself or content, as I do now. And I've just been through a horrendous break up (7 year ltr/dc together), so that's saying something. If 15 year old me could meet me, she would think I'm a boring, sensible, average, single mum, with a mundane job, and be disgusted (she would envy my pets though), and have a big moody, self absorbed, self pitying existential crises over it and been a Kevin to my parents. I'm so glad I'm not a teenager anymore.

Are any of the dc mentioned here on websites, getting dodgy info and advice? There was a big thing when I was a teen, for looking at self harm and anorexia/bulimia sites. There were "Ana" and "Mia" rules to follow, advice, etc. Dangerous, crazy stuff like "nothing tastes as good as skinny feels".

wicked my thoughts exactly! I think Jake was right when he posted that some girls don't think through the implications. Dd likes boys and has a bf - if she transitions, who will want to be with with her? Gay men won't find her attractive, straight girls may not (and she doesn't fancy girls anyway), and as you say, it will be obvious that he was a girl. I know plenty of trans people have partners but my point is, it will be more difficult. Also, as Jake says, having a phalloplasty op isn't a given.

Dd has always had plenty of male friends and has sometimes found female friendships confusing. However, she is quite aggressive - I'm not sure if this is how she thinks boys should behave, or whether she has anger issues. I think the latter as she has always been quite an angry child. Linked to her anxiety most likely.

I remember wanting to be a boy as a younger teen. I hated the way my mum made me dress and thought my brother's clothes were much cooler (also became a goth etc). I hated my changing body. Yes, had the internet been around, I would have been susceptible to this social contagion. Dd has been on trans forums but I've asked her to come off as I said some of them don't give a balanced view. I'm thinking of showing her Jake's post at some point.

Like you allatsea I am constantly looking for signs she is changing her mind, but a year in and it hasn't happened. She wants to grow her hair again, so a small positive, but then says she if it looks girly she will cut it off again. A small ray of hope - a friend of a friends dd went through the same thing aged 14, changed her name, asked to be called he/him etc. Aged 16 and she is back to her female name.

For info on a "trans penis" or phalloplasty;

There are a few different surgeries which you would be offered depending on your female physiology. The most common in the UK is as follows. But I want to emphasize this is the last stage of a transition and only happens after 2 years of HRT, Top Surgery and many psychologist evaluations.

The vulva is dissected to form hollow cavities, and united into an approximation of a scrotum. A skin graft (usually from the leg) may also be used. Artificial testes are then inserted. The urethra is then thread through so you can pee as male.

Regarding erections you can get a pump inserted during surgery so you can have a functioning erection but stimulation would not prompt an erection, Nor would ejaculation ever be possible as you never have functioning testes.
The surgery is really for look rather than any function.

But again this is the last stage of a transition and only happens after a long period of psychological evaluation and involvement with a GIC.

Regarding being attractive to XYZ, for me this was the last of my concerns. And luckily now I have a great partner and 2 little boys who understand and treat me like a dad. But this itself was a struggle as there is a lot of stigma about trans people adopting also.

But anyway this is all way way way down the line from where your children are in their journey.

Thanks sandshark . I'm glad you have a loving partner and family - there are so many stigmas facing trans people that my dd hasn't even thought about. You and Jake seem happy - it gives me hope if this ends up being dd's journey.

Dd has said that she thinks becoming a boy will make her more attractive so she needs to work on self esteem (amongst other things). As you say surgery is a long way down the line and it seems that there is lots of time to iron out any underlying issues.

Wicked - you have hit the nail on the head, my daughter has never had a relationship, says she is bisexual, which she may be but again may be a further sign of confusion. She relates well to her dad but that is it as far as men go ( and he is a very sweet understanding, kind man) All of her friends have always been girls and still are, she says she would be scared to use the boys Loo at school. If I could turn her into a boy overnight I think she would be terrified and equally confused, with even less chance of friends. She does agree though that waiting till at least 18 is sensible and I am hoping for a much longer wait. I don't think she has any idea of the actual physical implications of transition, YouTube videos present almost as stand up comedy. I have warned her against getting on line info but it is very hard to police. We are all totally different at 25 than we are at 15 and like you say that is unimaginable to our 15 year old selves.

She relates well to her dad but that is it as far as men go ( and he is a very sweet understanding, kind man) All of her friends have always been girls and still are, she says she would be scared to use the boys Loo at school

What does she hope to gain by transitioning, then?

I'd get it if she wanted to be accepted by the boys as their equal. But what does she think will the difference be in how her female friends treat her if she transitions? Does she think they'll submit to her and consider her superior to themselves?
Or does she seriously look forward to being excluded from some of their conversations that relate to girl topics such as menstruation?

Or is she perhaps lesbian and thinks she'll be more attractive to girls if she pretends to be a boy?
In that case, some explanation of what a sexual orientation is, and that it is about sex, not gender, would help.

I really don't know apart from the fact that she feels her body should not be female. This started when she put on weight after puberty and suddenly felt self conscious. Before that she was happy in herself, embraced puberty and did all the things a teenager usually does in terms of experimenting with clothes, hair etc. Maybe if it is that fundamental then she will only be happy transitioning but then I don't think she'll be happy, a girl in a boy's body . I think she has OCD thought patterns which have become stuck around body dysmorphia, she has quite a few traits of OCD recognised by CAMHS and other anxieties. She has always had a tendency to reinvent herself every few years and does things to blend in ie picking up accents etc quite ASD. She does hate talking about periods etc because she feels that shouldn't relate to her but can't join in on any typically male conversations and is a very feminine personality in many ways. If she was a boy now I think she would be very marganilised. It makes no sense to me at all!

same re ocd thought patterns around body dysmorphia. in a new twist to this nightmare i think dd is restricting her calorie intake. I've noticed recently she has become very slim (now wearing age 11 boys trousers) - yesterday she didn't eat until dinner time and must have had a total of 500 calories although she didn't do much all day. she's starting saying she doesn't like food etc. she has a restricted diet anyway due to sensory issues around food but has always eaten enough. still no news from camhs so I'm going to call them monday and say this.

we have had challenges since she was a toddler - when will it end.

hoping this is me being hyper sensitive to any changes in dds behaviour

Sorry to hear this re her food intake. My daughter lost a lot of weight, I didn't notice at first because she wears baggy clothes but then I realised she was leaving the table and disappearing after meals. I asked her if she was making herself sick, she denied it. Luckily she was weighed at the doctors and they also had a previous weight. The loss was scary, she was referred back to CAMHS to the eating disorder nurse. She revealed to her that she had lost weight to regain a straight figure and to prevent periods. She was making herself sick. It has been difficult but she is now eating more, has put on a little of the weight. She will only eat healthy foods though and is resistant to change, however doesn't like going to CAMHS so is trying to gain some weight so we don't have to keep going back! Having the health issues explained to her by someone other than me and also realising that starving the body also increases psychological issues has helped her understanding. Like you I think when will there be good news?

CAMHS might well prioritise if they think there is danger of an eating disorder, we were seen really quickly once our gp rereferred due to the weight loss.

have you stopped your dd going on the internet or anything? we have router filters etc but she is able to bypass them.

I feel so sorry (and frightened) for the children of today.

We've never ever had so many children wanting to 'transition', as we do at the moment.
Something's gone badly wrong, somewhere and I wish they (Health Authorities) would start to take this sudden surge of children wanting to destroy the bodies they're born with, more seriously.
The whole thing's a ticking time bomb.

when i took a list of my dds behaviours to the gp, he focussed on the gender identity one. one behaviour of a list on 2 sides of a4.

for all of you mums. My DD is only 1 so I've not dealt with this personally but I really feel for you.

Do you think that part of the issue might be societal? That it's bloody hard to be a woman and a girl these days (horrible expectations around sexuality, appearance, etc) and that girls are looking at that and thinking 'I'm off!' rather than positively wanting to be boys?

i think we have become so focussed on what it means to be one gender that if you don't fit into those norms there must be something wrong with you. use of the word tomboy for example - a girl who likes football, playing with worms etc isn't showing boyish behaviours ffs! she is a girl who likes football and playing with worms.

there is so much biased information on the internet where transitioning is presented as a lifestyle choice rather than the reality of transitioning like pps have on this thread.

rain encourage your dd to be happy in the body that she is in, be gender neutral in your approach to dress, toys, hair. dont worry if she wants short hair etc - believe me this is a non issue when faced with a dd who hates herself so much she wants to starve herself and cut off her breasts.

I think our children have come at this at the very worst time. In years to come people will be saying how did we let this happen ? it is political correctness gone mad, not wanting to upset the LGBT members of society. Of course there will always be people who truely feel born in the wrong body and need life saving interventions. These people are transsexuals and I think that by using the term transgender instead you have a catch all phrase where people unhappy being represented as society expects of them feel that they must ultimately be the opposite, especially vulnerable young girls, who are going to research this and come up with a self diagnosis which is then accepted without question by doctors. It might be a bit extreme to compare it but the sexual abuse of many young girls could have been stopped sooner if the authorities hadn't been afraid of being called racist, call it what it is abuse . Call this what it is and in some extreme cases there are transsexuals who need this but many more are young confused people who are challenging gender sterotypes and who are being allowed to take this to the extreme and receive medical interventions which if left to develop into adults they may well regret. In ten years time there will be an outrage that this was ever allowed to happen.

Don't know if my last post made sense. I feel really angry that my daughter is in this situation. It feels as though she has been abducted and replaced by someone who looks a bit like her. Until this thought landed in her head and took over she was happy, funny, had loads of friends, loved being a teenage girl for at least a year after her periods started. This scenario would have been totally unimaginable then and she would have been horrified at the thought of wanting to be a boy. I don't think she would be in this situation without validation from the Internet. She never felt like a boy before but now can't shift from this. She now has virtually no friends, hardly ever goes out, looks drained and unhappy all the time. I miss my daughter and want her back. I don't want her to be victim of her generation.

i get what you're saying. i feel angry as well. my dd has self diagnosed herself with gender dysphoria and this will be further embedded by gps/camhs.

i spoke to her tonight and reiterated what several pps have said. that bottom surgery is not a given, what it means for relationships and sex, that she is tiny and won't pass for a man, about having to share men's spaces, that she can't ever change her sex. that the happy trans utubers are portraying a biased viewpoint and it is a lonely road.

harsh? yes but true and she needs to think about all this before embarking on any gender 'reassignment'

do you have to take the gic referral allatsea we don't wish to engage with them at all - what dd does when she is an adult is up to her.

Well done for talking frankly to her. I am waiting for the right time as we are having a relatively quiet time right now. I do want to make it clear soon though. We didn't have to go with the referral to the Tavistock but I went with it as I felt she would feel listened to and as some people have said it helped. I stipulated on the referral form that it was for talking therapies only and not as a gateway to any thing else. I have said categorically that I won't give permission for any medical intervention at all. That is up to her as an adult, I just hope she changes her mind before then.

Hi, just wondering how things are going as we approach the new term? I am dreading it as school is really difficult for our dd. I talked to her re how difficult transition is and all I got was "I know". I worry that I am not helping her open up with her feelings because she knows I find it so difficult. Moomoo how are things with your dd's eating? It is such a tricky area.

Hi allatsea

Behaviour hasn't been too good over the past week, guessing because school's starting and also because we had the upcoming camhs appointment, which was today.

The appointment was really positive, after all my concerns. The psychologist was understanding of the gender issues and agreed that all the other issues need to be sorted before there is any talk of transition. So, we are addressing all the anxiety/anger/self harm/eating and looking at an aspergers diagnosis. The psychologist said dd definitely showed non-NT traits. She also said, to me and dd, that gender confusion is very common in teens that show these traits as its a way of finding their place in the world.

Re the eating dd is still very skinny but I have been making sure she tries to eat something regularly throughout the day. Camhs said to raise it again at the next meeting if we think she's lost any more weight.

Dd is very bouyant following the meeting, and seemed to open up a bit. But things could regress once she gets back into the routine of school. I feel like a weights been lifted as it's all I've been thinking about for the last year or so.

How are you and your dd doing?

Really interesting article here debunking the 'if you don't support transition, your child will kill themselves' myth: 4thwavenow.com/2017/09/08/suicide-or-transition-the-only-options-for-gender-dysphoric-kids/

Glad your CAMHS appointment went well. It is a relief to get talking and to feel that your concerns are being taken seriously. We have had an as expected start to the new school year, with a very sad and at times tearful dd. This has been made worse by her having her period, which she seems really distressed by. She hasn't been having regular periods for sometime, even prior to her losing lots of weight. She used to deal with them ok though but the last time she had one she got really upset and wanted to take the continuous pill to stop them altogether. I suggested a wait and see approach as they are so inferequent I didn't want her taking hormones unnecessarily. Last time we left it that if she was distressed again we would go to the gp. However this time she hasn't mentioned that at all. She is obviously upset, I haven't said anything about the pill but have been sympathetic and given opportunity for talk. She does this, will get really upset about something and then not mention it again. I don't know if it's because she can't talk to me or is having second thoughts or doesn't think I will be happy about her ideas. Sometimes I think I can't stand the not knowing where this is going any longer. I feel we are all stuck. She hasn't told anyone else about her feelings of gender dysphoria or asked us to do anything different and it has been like this for a year now, is she playing the long waiting game or unsure of herself?