Another teenage girl who want to be a boy

[allatsea123]

This is my first post on mumsnet! I have read and reread other post on girls with gender dysphoria and have gained a lot of support, so here goes! Our daughter told us about 6 months ago that she felt she should be a boy and the only way forward was to transition fully. She was 14 then, now 15. I was totally devastated and utterly lost. I had felt that something was on the horizon as she had asked for a hair cut and started wearing boyish clothes a few months previous. We didn't know what to do so suggested she give herself 6 months to think about things. We did take her to the GP though as I thought counselling might help. She was referred to CAMHS and the psychologist told us that she wasn't convinced by our daughter and that we should come back to her in a year or so. Thank god for the voice of reason, I thought! We did get referred for counselling which was not helpful because she wasn't given any strategies to help deal with her feelings. The last six months have seen her become socially isolated, depressed and she has developed an eating disorder. We are now back at CAMHS with the eating disorder nurse and hopefully soon for a more thorough assessment of her mood, OCD behaviours etc. I completely fell apart at the beginning but seem to have convinced myself that this, although very real for her at the moment, won't persist and so am better able to cope. I believe this is sudden onset gender dysphoria, she never showed any discomfort with being a girl until a few months before she told us. as a small child she was very girly, she became a tom boy for a while a primary school but never asked for boys clothes. As soon as she left primary school it was earrings, make up, hair styles etc. She embraced puberty and it doesn't seem long ago she was moaning that I wouldn't buy underwired bras. I feel as if she was struck with a thought one day that has taken hold and drawn her in. She is sad, lonely and lost and so are we. We still use her name and refer to her as she because although we know she doesn't like this she won't let us tell anyone, even her siblings so we have no choice. I know that she is totally convinced that the only way to be happy is if someone can wave a magic wand and she can leave the house tomorrow a boy. How that would help I have no idea as she would then be a girl in a boys body! She has never had any typically male interests, has an older brother but never shown an interest in his things and all her friends are girls, how could she relate to people if she was a boy? I don't know how to help her though this. We have said that we will support if she still feels this way as an adult but I can't give permission for any medical interventions when I am not convinced that this is a permanent thing. She has always been one to reinvent herself every now and then and I suppose that is what I am hoping for, that she finds a way back to being happy being herself. But how???

Youre welcome. It has been a difficult journey and for a while i read all the articles etc. Like " those who transitioned then changed their mind " . This was part of my denial a normal reaction to loss. It was a huge loss. My ftm child told me early on something that sticks with me " mum I'm still me ....Still the same person you know and love" also reminded me regularly this is not a lifestyle choice as he said " i see no future life as a female i need to ..not chose to live as a male". Coming out as trans is one of the hardest things a young person can do. That's why many don't til post puberty and many didn't in the past. Imagine how scary it must be for a teen risking rejection from friends , family etc. I don't know how that would feel but imagine it would be so so stressful n not something they do lightly. How is your child coping at the moment ?

HI allatsea123 and other parents in this rapidly overcrowded boat of rapid onset gender dysphoria, I find myself with a very similar experience where my daughter age 15, completely out of the blue, has announced she wants to transition to a male. She's at CAMHS who have done nothing to question the reasons for her self-diagnosis. Useless. Most alarming is that when I expressed my concerns to her CAMHS psychiatrist in the presence of my daughter about the growing number of women who are detransitioning , the psych said 'oh no, you will find those instances are very very rare indeed'. My daughter reinforced this by telling that in the whole history of transgenderism there have only been 4 cases of detransition. This is pure trans ideology speaking, I was astounded a psych could go along with this immovable, and wrong, statistic. There are so many stories - written and spoken on youtube - of women who feel they made the wrong decision, that they were too quickly herded into transitioning, without being encouraged to explore the many other issues that can trigger this.

I know there are rare cases where trans is a real diagnosis - and we live in an age where treatment is possible for people in this position - but rapid onset gender dysphoria in teenage girls is something new, and it is viral, it is a social media contagion and very few people are coming out publicly and questioning this phenomena.

My daughter has a referral to the Tavistock Clinic - there is an 8 month waiting list - we allowed this only to buy us time and in the hope that we'll talk her through this before then. I am nervous they will tow the party line and allow her self-diagnosis to stand. Right now her father and I are working out an approach to talk her through this, and put a line under this whole thing before she falls any further into this trap of believing this is the road to fulfilling self-discovery.

I feel for you, Imamum, and hope your DD has time to get through this social contagion. The explanation for the psych's ridiculous statement is that currently the medical fashion in these matters is that anything but uncritical endorsement of trans ideology counts as "conversion therapy". That's right: they're comparing exploring a teenager's MH issues to trying to "pray the gay away". It's a terrible analogy.

I imagine you have done a load of research but I have a lot of links to useful blogs if you're interested.

Also, you'll get a lot more support and responses if you start your own thread, either here or in Feminism Chat. Other parents have got a lot of support from that forum.

One thought I'll offer. Is it possible that your DD has been sexually abused recently? I ask because that seems to be one reason for girls suddenly deciding they want to be boys.

Hello IamMum, welcome to the club of terrified parents. If you haven't found it yet www.4thwavenow.com is a fabulous resource. There is great support in the comments sections below each article. I don't have any answers - we are 9 months into this with our 19 year old, and everyone is different. Just a few things that I have found important, in no particular order: Make sure she knows you love her unconditionally, try not to back her into a corner, get help for yourself; has she been screened for Asbergers/ ASD, is she getting help for any mental ill health - anxiety etc.
The bottom line we have is that we don't want our child to make any irreversible decisions until she has fully matured around 25, but we will stand by her and support her no matter what.
As Prawn said there is good support here on Mumsnet on the Feminism Chat board - some brilliant people fighting the corner for children and young people, esp girls.
I am astounded at the psychiatrist saying detransitiong is very rare in front of your daughter, especially when it has come out of the blue.
You should raise your concerns too with your GP, your MP. The more this phenomenon becomes real (i.e. Not just something you read about in the papers) the better.
All the best - it's really tough.

I'm another Mum with a daughter 14 who thinks,believes,wants to be a boy. Dd has ASD and I believe that is at the root of it. She doesn't see herself as the same as her girl friends and rather than seeing the ASD she sees it that she should be/is a boy.
She doesn't want to do anything at present,she had her long hair cut off but it's still shoulder length and she has worn trousers for years anyway.She has an online male persona and she has shortened her name to a male derivative and for now that is enough.
I keep listening and offering support and believe if I can help her come to terms with her being a girl with ASD then she might find who she really is.
Privately I question how on earth she would pass as a male if she decided that that was who she is as she is a very petite 4 foot 10 and unlikely to grow any more.

I thinks you are so right stopmakinggsense we all need to make the professionals aware of how many girls have sudden onset gender dysphoria, it is becoming an epidemic and they can't all be truly transgender. I have had a horrible 24 hours. The evening before school is always really hard and last night my daughter said she was really worried about her periods starting again once she regains weight ( dd has an eating disorder but is doing really well). I was not entirely surprised I suppose but she used to take them in her stride, now she says she won't be able to cope with school if she has a period. She barely copes anyway. I know that she can probably take the pill but still I am upset at another full rejection of her femininity. She also had her hair cut again today and it sounds awful but I can hardly look at her I find it so upsetting. I feel that she may have body dysmorphia as she is very feminine in all interests, friends etc and the masculine things seem like an effort. She deepens her voice, it is expressionless and dull and makes even simple conversations difficult. But when asked about telling siblings or friend about her gender status she always has an excuse, so even though she hates her name and being referred to as she we have no choice but to carry on calling her that. When I asked about friends at school she only has female friends and says all the boys are stupid, except one who is ok! she agrees she is much more like the girls than the boys. I am so confused. I actually can't bear to think about my daughter slowly turning into a boy in front of me, it would be years of torture that I don't think I am strong enough to deal with. Sometimes I feel that my instinct is right, she will get through this and learn to be happy again and then days like today are full of despair thinking I am losing my daughter. I know she is the same person ( but much more unhappy than when she was feminine) but my brain just can't computer such a change, I have no parallels , it makes no sense. Sorry for rambling on!

I know exactly how you feel. My daughter only has (lovely) female friends who are very kind, as is everyone, for which I am eternally grateful. I can see no logic in this, and she is such a logical child. My DD doesn't seem to have a problem with having periods, and is fairly comfortable in a tight sports bra rather than a binder. I too find it very difficult when she gets her hair cut brutally short (far shorter than my DS does). She has self-harmed in the past but that has abated for now, and she doesn't want to carry on with seeing a psychologist. She is on the waiting list for the adult gender clinic. So doing OK but fragile. I just hope that we can keep her safe for a few years while she figures things out and can make good decisions. And if that means hormones etc then of course we will love and support her still, however hard. I would be delighted if she could live without the hormones or surgery, I won't actually mind how she dresses or what pronouns she uses if that is a good way to live for her. I just think it is far more likely to be caused by ASD and anxiety. These poor kids.

The ASD makes everything so complicated doesn't it? Dd doesn't actually like boys or have any interest in what I suppose you'd call typically male interests. So she loathes all sports and she dislikes any sort of loud or boisterous behaviour.
As her online male persona she has male friends but their shared interests are Art and Anime and they do a lot of exchanging and comparing drawings.
Her online female account is for her school friends that are all girls she keeps them strictly separate.
I worry I suppose but I'll just keep on listening and providing what I think she needs. I suppose time will tell whether she wants to move forwards with it or it dies a death or that she remains as she is with her two separate identities.

My DD hasn't had a formal ASD diagnosis yet - we are in that process now. What I have read says that it can lead to a weak sense of identity, and not fitting in (hence trying out an alternative identity); also that maturity is delayed.

My DD is certainly less mature than her peers. Is this what you have found 1nsanity?
I think if I had any idea that she would think she is a boy, I might have tackled her directly earlier on. In fact if I had had any idea she was autistic I would have tried to help her think more flexibly about everything, not just gender issues (rather than thinking she was simply a bit stubborn and awkward and would grow out of it).
As it is, and as this came right out of the blue, I am now unable to do this - she sincerely believes her gender is male, but that her biology is female, there is no further discussion to be had.

Tony Attwood in his Asbergers book says in his experience that this can last for a couple of years.
In any case, you would think that extra caution would be taken with teens/young adults on the spectrum, but I am not sure that is the case, unfortunately.

Yes dd is less mature than her peers, I think it's generally accepted that their maturity levels are roughly lower by 25 to 33%. Dd at 14 is more like an eleven year old (and looks about 10 tbh) I think and her understanding of feelings and emotions is considerably younger than that.
The rigid thinking is a nightmare and contributes to it I think. Dd doesn't see herself as the same as the girls she knows so she must be a boy even though she doesn't see herself as the same as any boys either but that's because she has a girl's body (her reasoning).
If dd sensed any sort of resistance from me she would only become stronger and stronger in her beliefs and less able to backtrack so I tread a fine line of listening to her, calling her the name she prefers and buying the clothes she likes and for now that is enough for her. I'm hoping that with time and maturity and counselling to help her understand better the ASD she might just become comfortable with being a girl/woman who has ASD.

I too think I would just make her more stubborn in her belief if I challenged her. And also I respect her wishes (she is after all an adult, however immature - so in a different situation to you).

I found this interview with Tony Attwood - and yes it is a Christian website so probably not on the affirming spectrum, and I have little patience with religious objections - but really important I think to listen to experts in ASD with experience of Gender issues, rather than just gender specialists with experience of ASD:

www.aacc.net/2016/05/27/asasd-special-interest-and-gender-identitydysphoria/

And I know I may be in denial, and may be proved wrong....

Hi allatsea, your situation sounds really emotional and difficult. I can't really comment on your DD's ASD or ED, but I'm hoping I can try and help you understand your DD's experience a bit more as a trans 15 yr old. I came out about 2 years ago and am hoping to have hormones when I'm 18. Just being a teenager is stressful for anyone let alone adding being trans into it! For a transgender person it's very scary, especially if they feel their parents are having trouble accepting it too. It all sounds like you're doing your best to support her but she can probably pick up on how you feel. it's really hard to feel like you're living a lie by most people not knowing but at the same time feeling very scared of people's reactions if you tell them. My friend who is also a ftm trans 15 year old had lots of issues with bullying and depression because of this and is now being homeschooled, I was lucky enough not to have this. My mum found it difficult me wanting to express what I felt inside but I think going clothes shopping for boys stuff with her really helped. All I wanted was for my parents to accept me really and it was awful thinking they wouldn't believe me or think it was a phase. I know there's lots of stuff about it being an epidemic but it's so hurtful to hear people say like it's a disease or I'm not really trans and just confused. Your DD probably feels the same even if she knows you love her and are trying to support her. It might be easier to try and think of her as a he in your head sometimes and slowly building up to imagining her as a boy until she has come out to more people and you can use he and the chosen name in real life too. I do get that it's hard to let go of your DD and am so happy youre supporting her, i did know of someone kicked out of their house when they came out as trans. Anyway I hope I helped and so sorry if I have misread your situation, best of luck to you and your family with this.

Hello Ambersea, I really appreciate you responding, and glad that you are finding your own way so well. As you know first hand, as parents this is really hard to come to terms with. I love my child so much and I can't bear the thought of hormones or surgery, frankly, so if it is possible to live well without that I would be so thankful. The human brain does keep maturing until 25 or so in my head that is the point at which I would have no hesitation giving my wholehearted support to any irreversible changes. But of course I give my support anyway (even if I disagreed) - I do use the new name and help with buying clothes etc. And yes I am astonished at how brave you must have been to come out. The ASD is a serious complication - by definition these children find it difficult to identify their own emotions, struggle to fit in with their peers, are prone to anxiety and very rigid thinkers, which adds to our concerns.

All the best to you.

Just wondering how everyone is doing? Still really struggling here... My daughter's counsellor feels that she is a very bright girl who is different in her thinking to many teenage girls but that is her mind not her gender. She feels that dd is making the connection that she doesn't fit in with girls so should therefore be a boy. We are working on sense of self and self worth but I don't know, she is so miserable. I might cope better if she had just one thing but it's too much with eating disorders, no friends, crying everyday before school, hardly speaking to anyone and then even when she does in this depressed voice and on top of that she doesn't want to be herself anymore. Until this struck she was so happy and lovely, I want to shout it isn't fair! How does everyone else cope? My brain goes round in circles all the time. i am going to try meditation to try and empty my mind occasionally before it explodes!

Sorry, that was very moany, I hope you are all doing ok and your daughters too xx

Allatsea I can really sympathise, my brain feels like it is going to explode sometimes. If you can meditate, let off steam somehow that can only do you good.

My DD is OK at the moment. Anti-depressant meds seem to be working well, still self-harming but functioning and on a fairly even keel.

I found this approach helpful to use which helps us survive one day at a time
gendercriticaldad.blogspot.co.uk/2016/05/ignore-redirect-and-reward-dealing-with.html.

It might seem simplistic but could a pet (or another pet if you have already got one) - however small - give your daughter and your family something else to do/focus on? Or something else to break the cycle? We have started doing a bit of art for a couple of hours - I just went and got lots of cheap canvases, glue, paper - there are some great YouTube videos you can copy. It's a bit of fun, no one is very good, and it's nice and gender neutral. That might even help you even if she doesn't want to join in.

My DD (19) is being assessed for autism at the moment, and I had a chance to speak to the psychiatrist about her presentation as transgender. She confirmed that (often undiagnosed) autism might be the cause of many of the mental health problems seen in other psychiatric specialities in particular gender and eating disorders. And that helping an individual come to terms with the autism diagnosis first, can help them understand why they feel so different to their peers. Even if they did go on to transition (she definitely thinks ome individuals are , then it lowers the risk of it being a mistake.

It was a big relief to talk to a medical professional, who whilst fully supportive of transitioning in the right circumstances, saw the gender difficulties arising from autism, rather than an independent "thing".

Just wanted to join in because it seems we are all in the same boat. I feel like I'm losing my mind - it's taking over our lives and in reality I don't think there is anything much wrong with my child. I don't know where to get help if the medical professionals are all in the affirming trans brigade. (Sorry to barge in, I started a thread last night I think but not very good with this stuff, I can't see it when I look at last day etc and no one has replied)

Newbie - welcome, sorry you too have found yourself in this position. I don't think all the medical professionals are in the affirming brigade. Have you talked to your GP? Is there a clinical psychologist who specialises in adolescent mental health (i.e. not a gender therapist, whatever that is) who could see your child (or see you if that would help)? Vet them first to see what their general attitude is - you may have to go privately - and I don't mean a counsellor or therapist.
Read through these threads - quite a lot of good links here. It consumes all our lives I think. Harder than anything either of us have dealt with as parents.

Stopmakinggsense , I like the link you mentioned above, it's good to just reaffirm your parenting style and you are right, trying to just reboot things by doing normal stuff does help. I sometimes get so down about dd's looks, voice etc I forget to try to have fun, ( to be fair it is quite difficult as the response from her is a properly depressed " Kevin" most of the time!) the dad in the blog is right though, some of this is just pure teenage behaviour and that is good to hang onto. They are really young and immature and so hopefully will change a lot over time.
Newbie, I think stopmakinggsense is right, the professionals that I have encountered ( except one) have been quite sceptical of my daughter's gender dysphoria( not to her face). We had an appointment at CAMHS today which was positive in that the eating disorder is getting better. They are going to refer to the Tavistock which I find both alarming and hopeful in equal measure. Alarming because I had hoped this would go away by now but hopeful because their website does seem balanced, the wait is long and they will at least have experts in gender dysphoria there. My daughter knows this won't lead straight yo medical intervention as I have said I won't give permission until she is an adult and can decide for herself. She said today that she hated her body when it went from straight to curvy post puberty, hence the later eating disorder. I hope so much this is more about reluctance to grow up and become womanly than about becoming a boy. Time will tell I guess.

I have stared meditating, there is a great website called franticworld.com where you can listen to meditation tapes under the resources section.

Hopefully one day we will all have calmer lives!

Found the thread! Thank you!

stopmakingsense,
Agree, agree, agree!!! Thank you for this.

Hi all, This has been a God send to find. Having joined a Trans forum it is too focused on the kids changing gender. I have a 12 yr old daughter who has come out as Gay and Non-binary. At some level it does not surprise me but at another it is hard to digest. Over the past year she has cut her hair gradually and it's now really short . Outside of the school uniform she dresses androgynously. My real concern is her sudden anxiety issues that have snowballed out of control and I am finding them very hard to manage. We have a CAHMS referral in July for the Gender topic. I see from other peoples posts that anxiety is part of the process whether this is a phase or not as my daughter says 'it's my current reality'. She has become frightened of being poisoned, she won't eat anything her hands have touched. This has started from a food tech lesson on chicken, salmonella and cross contamination. She had a very healthy appetite before this and ate a wide variety of foods. Any comments would be appreciated.

NewbieSpartacus - I don't think they are all on the affirming brigade. It's a long process with lots of support before anything is done. You have to remember this is a life and gender changing process. Get professional help and speak to your Dr. There is a lot of things online to help understand . My daughter read a really good book which helped with her understanding of terms and everything - The ABC's of LGBT.

Daphne I am glad your child is finding their way, and being supported. Every child is different. I don't think parents are labelling their children as ASD because they don't want to accept a trans identity. It's just that it is really important that the ASD (if present) is diagnosed and understood. Having gender identity problems (and a weak sense of identity in general) and other mental health problems is a feature of ASD, so they may indeed genuinely suffer from gender identity difficulties but this is secondary to the ASD, which is a neurological state. The point is that if the ASD is undiagnosed, there is a risk that that young person may mistake their inability to relate to their peers for feeling that they are the wrong gender, so being treated for gender dysphoria on the standard care pathway may not be the right answer, or lead to a poor outcome. This also applies to the other common mental health issues in young people with undiagnosed ASD (anxiety, eating disorders) . It may also be that transition is the right answer for some of them, regardless of the ASD, but at least it may happen with better understanding of their own self, so the risk of making a mistake is lower. This as explained to me by an NHS psychiatrist.

Best wishes every one.

Daphne65 thank you very much for your post. It's been very helpful. I can see how difficult it is for parents and how hard it is for our children.