Another teenage girl who want to be a boy

[allatsea123]

This is my first post on mumsnet! I have read and reread other post on girls with gender dysphoria and have gained a lot of support, so here goes! Our daughter told us about 6 months ago that she felt she should be a boy and the only way forward was to transition fully. She was 14 then, now 15. I was totally devastated and utterly lost. I had felt that something was on the horizon as she had asked for a hair cut and started wearing boyish clothes a few months previous. We didn't know what to do so suggested she give herself 6 months to think about things. We did take her to the GP though as I thought counselling might help. She was referred to CAMHS and the psychologist told us that she wasn't convinced by our daughter and that we should come back to her in a year or so. Thank god for the voice of reason, I thought! We did get referred for counselling which was not helpful because she wasn't given any strategies to help deal with her feelings. The last six months have seen her become socially isolated, depressed and she has developed an eating disorder. We are now back at CAMHS with the eating disorder nurse and hopefully soon for a more thorough assessment of her mood, OCD behaviours etc. I completely fell apart at the beginning but seem to have convinced myself that this, although very real for her at the moment, won't persist and so am better able to cope. I believe this is sudden onset gender dysphoria, she never showed any discomfort with being a girl until a few months before she told us. as a small child she was very girly, she became a tom boy for a while a primary school but never asked for boys clothes. As soon as she left primary school it was earrings, make up, hair styles etc. She embraced puberty and it doesn't seem long ago she was moaning that I wouldn't buy underwired bras. I feel as if she was struck with a thought one day that has taken hold and drawn her in. She is sad, lonely and lost and so are we. We still use her name and refer to her as she because although we know she doesn't like this she won't let us tell anyone, even her siblings so we have no choice. I know that she is totally convinced that the only way to be happy is if someone can wave a magic wand and she can leave the house tomorrow a boy. How that would help I have no idea as she would then be a girl in a boys body! She has never had any typically male interests, has an older brother but never shown an interest in his things and all her friends are girls, how could she relate to people if she was a boy? I don't know how to help her though this. We have said that we will support if she still feels this way as an adult but I can't give permission for any medical interventions when I am not convinced that this is a permanent thing. She has always been one to reinvent herself every now and then and I suppose that is what I am hoping for, that she finds a way back to being happy being herself. But how???

Just wanted to say you mums are doing an amazing job.

My dd is probably on the spectrum but not in any way gender dysphoric.

We have had some real mood swings and issues lately and it seems mental health issues are just massive at the moment.

I just wanted to say you are so great to be working and supporting your children.

user1495619579 "We have a CAHMS referral in July for the Gender topic. I see from other peoples posts that anxiety is part of the process whether this is a phase or not as my daughter says 'it's my current reality'. She has become frightened of being poisoned, she won't eat anything her hands have touched. This has started from a food tech lesson on chicken, salmonella and cross contamination. She had a very healthy appetite before this and ate a wide variety of foods. Any comments would be appreciated."

I have been reading another thread on Mumsnet about a mum who is very worried about her dd's behavior. She is much younger than teenage but many people had suggested possible abuse, but others OCD (Obsessive Compulsive Disorder). I had OCD (as a teenager and early 20s, undiagnosed) and so I was interested to read about it.

I was wondering about my dd when I read about Pandas,. I had never heard of it before. It is nto to do with anything to do with gender but because you, *user1495619579 said "Any comments would be appreciated." I thought I would share it. The anxiety and also the restrictive eating may be part of this. I kind of feel it is a long shot, in general, but have asked my GP about it because my dd has some anxiety and has expressed some tics as well.

"PANDAS (Pediatric Autoimmune Neuropsychiatric Disorders Associated with Streptococcal Infections) occurs when strep triggers a misdirected immune response results in inflammation on a child’s brain. In turn, the child quickly begins to exhibit life changing symptoms such as OCD, anxiety, tics, personality changes, decline in math and handwriting abilities, sensory sensitivities, restrictive eating, and more."

www.pandasnetwork.org/understanding-pandaspans/what-is-pandas/

I really do not want to derail as I can see you are all supporting each other, which is fabulous, but I just wanted to share it.

Good luck.

Thank you for sharing this, it looks interesting reading. We have a significant number of autoimmune disorders in our children and my daughter already has hypothyroidism and is waiting blood results for further investigations. I will definitely look into this as the whole thing was so sudden and she has OCD traits confirmed by CAMHS as well. There is so much more to all of these issues than what is on the surface, the exhausting thing is being the parent and having to drive everything, but the more info the better. Thank you 🙂

allatsea123 as I say my dd does not have any gender disphoria. She has always been a bit of what is called a Tom-boy but seems happy to be a girl. However, the current issues did come on very quickly, over about a two month period. We'd had issues before but this was quite extreme.

I had some immunology issues, which I think were possibly the reason for secondary infertility. My GP is not very keen on all this for dd but is looking into it. We are awaiting for CAMHS referral.

I had OCD as a teen and anxiety later (early 30s), dd just seems at 12 to have a lot of 'issues' and so when I read about Pandas I thought I would look into it. Maybe the answer for us is somewhere in the middle of all this!

Wishing you, *allatsea123 and the other parents on here all the very best.

For parents of children with ASD and gender identity issues, I have found this paper which is trying to assess what research exists into why the 2 conditions may be linked, or co-exist. Basically, not very much! It suggests that the standard treatment pathway may not be suitable, and urges extra caution.

www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.3109/09540261.2015.1111199
I was intrigues by the notion that someone with ASD my not really have any sense of gender identity at all.

Also ASD often causes major anxiety (emerging in teenage years) which can lead to OCD, eating disorders and other mental health problems, so might be worth looking into that too, Italian?

Stopmakingsense still trying to get dd properly accessed. Been looking into all this for about 5 years now! Nothing seems to work quickly! But we are lucky, she is not too bad, has really great days, doesn't have any gender dysphoria etc. Dyslexia is a big issue for her and school. But I do just recognise many issues that our teens and pre teens are going through and I do wonder if the gender dysphira is a way for some of identifying out of some of the issues.

Anyway, I don't want to dominate, just want to observe and wish you all well, you are fabulous parents. Many of us are dealing with new areas which our own parents maybe never had to face.

hi another parent here going through similar. we went to the gp with dd who is almost 15. she's been saying she wants to be a boy for a year now and has been self harming and has had suicidal thoughts so we have been referred to camhs. my main concern right now is the self harm/suicide and dealing with the depression but I'm also really worried that she'll be referred to tavistock before any underlying issues have been dealt with. or is that what tavistock untangle? I'm hoping it will be a lengthy process and that she will change her mind - she's only 5ft.

Hello Moomoo - I don't have any experience of CAMHS or the Tavistock as my DD is older, but other posters have said that the Tavistock have been helpful and listened carefully to parents' concerns.
What we discovered with my DD is that she is on the autistic spectrum - she got a diagnosis at age 19. Gender difficulties, high anxiety levels, depression etc (inc eating disorders) are all common in this group, as is ASD being undiagnosed in girls as they are good at masking. Our DD self-harmed and suffered depression as a lead up to her telling us she is a boy. She is on medication for the depression and anxiety which has helped a lot. The ASD diagnosis is recent but we are encouraging her to get to grips with the implications of that before making any irreversible changes. Is that a possibility for your DD? I think this talk is a good introduction if you haven't thought about this before:

(and yes both GP and first psychiatrist both dismissed the possibility for our DD because of "good eye contact" and the fact that she has lots of friends).

Hopefully someone with direct experience of the Tavistock will come along soon. Best of luck to you.

Hi moomoo, my daughter was referred to CAMHS last year when she first told us she felt transgender, the psychologist at the time felt that she ( my daughter) wasn't really convinced and decided that a referral to the Tavistock should wait. I was really pleased with this. My daughter later developed depression and an eating disorder so we were rereferred to CAMHS and saw an eating disorders nurse. She has just completed a referral to the Tavistock ( at least I think she has, it seems to be taking her ages). As far as I know the waiting list from referral is about 8 months so I am not expecting a first appointment till about March next year. I am in two minds about it, I have heard people say that it really helped their children to sort out their feelings. I am hoping of course that will the case with my daughter, actually I hope that happens naturally before then but I doubt it somehow. I have told my daughter that I won't give permission for any medical intervention while she is a child so the referral is for therapy and discussion only. I really wanted a full psychological assessment at CAMHS befo the referral but that hasn't happened and the wheels turn incredibly slowly it seems.

It is the hardest waiting game to play as you know from your last year. It is incredibly hard seeing your children unhappy and not really being able to help. We see a counsellor and she has been brilliant and my daughter appreciates being challenged and not agreed with all the time. I am hoping it is giving her coping strategies for life as well as changing some of her negative thought patterns. I will up date as and when I hear from the Tavistock. I hope things settle down a bit for you soon x

thanks stop. we tried to push the gp for an as referral but he wanted to sort out the self harm stuff as a priority. i will push it again when we speak to camhs - i have a list of her behaviours since the age of 2 written down. i did show the gp but he seemed to disregard it.

i agree allatsea i have no intention of allowing any changes while she is still a child. can i ask, do you use a private counsellor - that might be the way fwd for us.

Hi moomoo, yes we went to a counsellor via CAMHS at first, we waited months for the appointment and to be honest it was useless. The sessions were completely closed doors ( on me) even though my daughter was happy to share with me. She said that all the counsellor did was agree with her and basically the message seemed to be "don't worry it won't always be like this one day you can be a boy "etc. She was glad to have someone to talk to but was given no help or strategies to deal with her feelings. A friend recommended the counsellor that we see now. I talked to her at length and was so relieved when she said that she completely agreed with me regarding any long term gender decisions. She works on CBT methods to help with the stresses my daughter experiences, she involves me and listens to me when I am upset too. She emphasises that we are all just people and gender has little to do with what sort of person we are, it's our qualities that count. My daughter relates well to her and does as she suggests and she gives some responsibilities to my daughter ie we do relaxation together which we do when my daughter suggests it, helping our relationship as well. I think finding the right counsellor is crucial and we have been lucky, she doesn't buy into the trendy gender theory and she believes that my daughter has ASD traits, she has shared these concerns with CAMHS for me. If you can find someone you relate well to I would highly recommend it , also you have the added benefit of not having to take extra time out of school. Having said all that CAMHS would have preferred we kept it in house I think and it might have made referrals and assessments quicker so you may want to ask their advice too.

that's what I'm worried about - I'd really want to meet with the counsellor first to make sure they have a balanced view.

my biggest fear is that dd goes ends up transitioning and is still not happy because the underlying issues haven't been addressed.

to be honest i can't see dd engaging with any counsellors - she's very much a closed book. that might end up being the end of the matter in regard to camhs.

we had a referral before for her anxiety - she went once and refused to go.

Yes I know what you mean. I feel that my daughter will one day be happy to be herself, whatever type of woman that is as long as we can hold off long enough from any medical intervention. She does seem to accept me saying no to intervention, I have told her I am not going to be responsible for any irreversible changes. My worry is that she is massively patient and will wait things out if necessary without saying much. She waited six months to have her hair cut short because I was really reluctant. sometimes I think she is just biding her time , it's very scary and confusing isn't it?

"Didn't answer your question- In terms of more practical things, if it does feel much of this relates to puberty you can help her to manage this e.g.. make sure she's happy with managing her periods, are they heavy or irregular, can she change her pads/tampons with confidence. Help her to dress in a way she is comfortable- if she doesn't like curves or boobs, help her in exploring ways to dress. Teaching her about puberty (how often periods are, anything else to look out for). Maybe include puberty of boys too as it can appear it's nothing other than getting taller, and happens later- as if she did go through a transition she would go through a male puberty. Sometimes you can assume young women know how to deal with this or work it out but my experience of girls with high functioning ASD they struggle with these things."

I like the idea of explaining how boys can struggle with puberty. My ex bf was a gifted choir boy with an amazing voice. He was a little bit the star boy but when his voice broke he couldn't cope with it, i believe he never got over it and it damaged his self stem irredeemably . if your dd likes to sing and perform this is one one advantage of being female.

Many moons ago I read Jocasta's Children: The Imprint of the Mother by Christiane Olivier. She talks about psychoanalysis from a female and possibly feminist persecutive and said somewhere that it's often highly (or above average) intelligent girls have more issue with puberty.

I am no expert but it doesn't sound like your dd is trans more that she is going through puberty and find the changes too much to deal with. Has she got a nn that could be either male or female which she could use for a while?

*yikes bad typing too early and no yet. Hope the post makes sense.

www.amazon.com/She-Understanding-Psychology-Robert-Johnson/dp/0060963972?tag=mumsnetforum-21 and www.amazon.com/Understanding-Masculine-Psychology-Robert-Johnson/dp/0060963964/ref=pd_bxgy_14_img_2/145-5538391-5561859?_encoding=UTF8&psc=1&refRID=BJHT4JNAGFBX32VBCWFY&tag=mumsnetforum-21 also this, it's very old but don't let that put you off. Have a read and maybe give it to your daughter to read if she is into this sort of thing.

I haven't read it for a while but found it very interesting.

Thank you I will have a read of these. What you say about puberty fits with my daughter and she is very intelligent with a slightly obsessive side to her nature. Any info which helps her to understand that people go through these things ( and out the other side) without conforming to societies stereotypes is really helpful. 🙂

A few more thoughts. What are your dd's interests?

Maybe explore together some strong female characters who have made a success of themselves without looking like 'stereotypical girls' or who don't dress stereotypical girly. Look at fashion form other places e.g. Italian and scandi fashion, often their look is more edgy and or androgynous.

I also think exploring feminism could be useful.

www.amazon.co.uk/d/Books/Girl-Up-Laura-Bates/1471149501/ref=pd_cp_14_1?_encoding=UTF8&psc=1&refRID=4W37VKM8XADBXFXGR7HW&tag=mumsnetforum-21

From the blurb (sorry long) :

They told you you need to be thin and beautiful.

They told you to wear longer skirts, avoid going out late at night and move in groups - never accept drinks from a stranger, and wear shoes you can run in more easily than heels.

They told you to wear just enough make-up to look presentable but not enough to be a slut; to dress to flatter your apple, pear, hourglass figure, but not to be too tarty.

They warned you that if you try to be strong, or take control, you'll be shrill, bossy, a ballbreaker. Of course it's fine for the boys, but you should know your place.

They told you 'that's not for girls' - 'take it as a compliment' - 'don't rock the boat' - 'that'll go straight to your hips'.

They told you 'beauty is on the inside', but you knew they didn't really mean it.

Well screw that. I'm here to tell you something else.

Hilarious, jaunty and bold, GIRL UP exposes the truth about the pressures surrounding body image, the false representations in media, the complexities of a sex and relationships, the trials of social media and all the other lies they told us.

'Bates takes a myth-busting approach to body image, food, sex and advertising, and is particularly good at boiling down feminist language into a snappy, everyday vernacular without diluting its power.' Metro

'Essential reading for young women and girls, Girl Up is set to become a key guiding text for the next generation like The Beauty Myth and The Feminine Mystique have for preceding generations. Morning Star Online

It’s hardly headline news that feminism can be funny. But, heavens, is it refreshing to see it done as well as it is [in this book]. Telegraph

‘Girl Up is something between a self-help book and a bracing love letter to today's teenage girls... I wish I'd had Girl Up when I was growing up. I could have used such no-nonsense survival guide.’ Sunday Times

‘Girl Up will be the first book on feminism many young women will read.’ Guardian

[Girl Up] tackles all the propaganda that women get bamboozled with from childhood. From the myth of the 'ballbreaker’ in the office to the ‘dangers’ of short skirts, Bates is funny, piercingly astute and will have you furious and politicized over the impact social media, pornography and advertising have on our bodies.’ Stylist

‘If you have a daughter or a niece or a younger sister or a god-daughter, buy it for them now… the book is an absolute must for girls navigating our hyper-sexualised, deeply sexist culture.’ The Pool

‘Feminist writer Laura Bates returns with another hard-hitting but hilarious book which exposes the truth surrounding pressures on body image, false representations in the media and lots of issues very relevant to girls today. This no-nonsense guide to being a girl in 2016 and is one all teen girls should read.’ Red magazine

‘For any woman who is sick of being told how to act, how to dress, or how to ward off unwanted advances, this book could be for you. Independent

‘This book is fabulous. It is inclusive and empowering. It is funny and frank and, as actor Emma Watson writes in the preface, “not for the faint-hearted”. It is the kind of sex and life education you wished you had at your at your disposal when you were 14.’ Irish Times

Also:

www.amazon.co.uk/Feminism-Teenagers-Sophie-Grillet/dp/1853404004?tag=mumsnetforum-21

BTW OP you sound like lovely, insightful mum.

Great suggestions shue - I may have missed the boat with my trans-identifying DD - but it might help me!

Hi...

I read through this thread and i thought I might say something coming from the position of a young person who is undergoing female to male transition.

Coming out is the hardest thing anyone can do. I didn't come out to my parents until I moved away to University and had started living as male. So first I would say you are lucky your child has been brave enough to come out to you, and whilst it may be hard for you to lose your daughter, you are not losing your child. Whilst they may change their name, or body, they are not changing anything more; they will still be the same kind, and caring individual with the same personality and still be your child.

Transition is not a quick or easy process and until surgery (and even after some surgery, depending on the options given) can be reversible. If your daughter has gone through female puberty (ie. Had periods) they would need to take hormone blockers (T injections) and could choose to stop this at any point and would then regain a normal menstrual cycle.

The top surgery can be reversed in that they could then choose to have breast implants if they were unhappy with their male form.

The bottom surgery (phalloplasty) is obviously the most serious and irreversible surgery. But to reach that point it is usually at least 5 years after starting the transition process.

I will give an example of my transition process;
2012 - Came out, referred to Gender Identity Clinic, seeing a variety of psychiatrists and having various psychological and physical tests to rule out other conditions (PCOS, some trauma, BPD (which i am diagnosed with, but deemed irrelevant to my gender because of dysorphia being near constant))
2014 - Lived as male (ie. Male name, dress, presentation - binding and packer) for 'sufficient time' to begin HRT
2016 - Top Surgery

My bottom surgery unfortunately can not happen due to a medical complication with my bladder so I will never fully be male, but I live as male in my day to day life and am significantly happier than I was as female.

To my parents my transition was seemingly out of nowhere, I was always tomboyish and disliked traditionally female things, but I never showed signs of wanting to be male outwardly. However, when I started puberty I struggled with my identity, I never felt female, at first I thought I needed larger breasts and that eventually I'd feel female once I had periods. But the periods came and I started to become more disgusted with my own body (and womens in general). It took me 3 years of struggling with periods, and trying to be okay as female (only talking about this to my school counselor) before I started to recognise that I wanted to be male and that it was a real possibility.

Anyway, I hope you read my experience and perhaps explain the realities of transitioning as I think a lot of young people think it as simpler than it is in reality. And I hope you come to terms with your daughter's experience and are able to support her in the ways I wish I could have openly discussed with my family.

Jake.

Thank you for sharing your story with us, you must have faced enormous challenges to get to where you are today. I think that each case must be unique and the journey different for each family. I do hope that if my daughter continues to feel as she does currently that I am able to support her in the way she deserves. Nobody asks to go through this and I know it is not a fad. I have told her that if it is what she wants as an adult then we will of course be there for her. As things are at the moment she doesn't want to tell anyone else or ask us to call her by a different name. We are leaving it to her to initiate changes as she seems reluctant to at the moment. She does wear boxers, doesn't shave and has relatively short hair. This is all hidden though as she never shows her arms or legs. I don't know what her story will be but I do know that she is kind and loving and fiercely determined and will succeed in life and we will always love her.

I wish you the very best for the future, I am sure that going through this will give you a huge amount of empathy and resilience, skills for life.

just checking in. we havent heard from camhs although dds case is going before the referral panel this week.

thanks jake for your story - my dd is at the same stage as allatsea's. its comforting to know that the gender identity clinic ruled out everything else before diagnosis. and i think you're right in that she has no idea how difficult transition is. I'm under no illusion that it will be the hardest thing she'd ever have to do. however my biggest fear is that she goes down this route and is still not happy.

I'm not feeling as panicky about it all as i was 2 weeks ago.

how are things with you allatsea?

Hi moomoo, the truth is I don't really know how things are, I have lost my sense of how to measure! My daughter seems happier that it's the holidays and is content to spend time with us, not seeing many friends, but is more relaxed in herself. Some days I think I see improvements, we have more of her normal voice and less of the deep depressed put on voice that she uses. The referral has been sent to the Tavistock so we are now waiting to see when the appointment will be, probably next year some time I think. My daughter hardly ever says anything about how she feels and so on days when she seems ok I hope she is feeling more comfortable in herself. I have ups and downs and that is usually dependent on silly things like I feel really hopeful if when doing the washing I notice that she has had a day not wearing boxers but girls pants ( I know it's that the boxers might be in the wash but I still see it as a good sign) I am probably being ridiculous but it's a way of coping, hoping that one day given time she will be ok with herself. I also feel that if she transitioned she still wouldn't be happy. I can't see her as a boy, not only because I don't want to but also because she does t have any friends who are boys, doesn't relate to any of the boys at school, has no typical male interests, I just can't see how she could go into the world as a man with no preparation, no history, no idea how to relate to other men. This is honestly the hardest thing that I have had to deal with as a parent but I am getting better at doing one day at a time.