Residence dispute with ex H: am I going to be reduced to 1 weekend per fortnight?

[agingoth]

Hi all. I am getting divorced and we are about to go into mediation. H put the petition in which I am going to accept.

My big worry is losing main residence of the kids. We have spent a year separated in London doing strict 50:50 custody. H insisted on staying in the family home so I left as the atmosphere was so terrible and went to live in a flat 10 minutes away, the kids being with me strictly half the time. I was very depressed and didnt' have much fight in me at that point.

I work a long way from London in the North Midlands and now want to take the children with me up there where I think they would have a better standard of living. H is adamant they must stay with him because 'this is their home' and ds1 is settled in school (he is in year 2). My 2 year old is not yet in nursery. They have a nanny four days a week.

I have Mondays off to look after them but have to go up to Stoke 2/3 days a week at the moment to work. If they came to live with me nearer there I would be able to finish work about 4 to be with them. At the moment if with H they are with the nanny until 7pm.

i have offered H every weekend promising to get them down to London to him and more time in holidays. He said no and insists they must stay in SE London and attend the school.

Is he being reasonable? Or am I deluded in thinking I can take them out of London/school?

thanks

yes, I shoudl add that H does suggest reducing me to every other weekend. I would probably try to come down every weekend though I doubt he would let me stay wth him so I don't know how I would manage this

I am so scared of losing my children, I think I am just going to have to be unemployed (and I really really have tried hard for a job down here)

yes, but why does he get to call the shots? Why is he able to dictate the terms of contact/residence?

with respect, you don't discuss the reasons for your separation, other than you left, your ex refused to move. People break up at different speeds, so is it possible that he is trying to punish you? While am sure he loves the kids, he is also being very inflexible, and there's a reason why.

Mediation isn't about compromise, but suppose there's an element inherent when both parents love their children and want them full time which isn't physically possible. Mediation is about moving forward and being able to live with the agreements made. May not be ideal, but both will have to live with it.

Ideally, you will be able to sort out arrangements for the children in mediation keeping in mind that you will always have a relationship with this man as he is the father of your children.

What happens if you are offered another job in a couple years time outside the M25? Will he be just as rigid? What happens if he is offered a job/changes career, meets someone else who doesn't live in London?

There are lots of solutions, and hopefully through mediation, you will be able to have them flagged up.

One of the first actions in mediation is to set an agenda as far as the areas up for discussion. I would suggest that you make it clear that you want to discuss not just residence, but your future career. It does impinge on him, so only fair to discuss it, but what are the parameters? Travel wise? Distance wise? In other words, you need to work out 'the rules.'

hi ilovemydog

he always has been a very rigid and stuckist person, it was always me pushing for change in the relationship and him resisting.

Yes he has reasons to hate me, the marriage broke up because of my (misguided) infidelity, but it was going very wrong anyway, we are very different people.

I am not helping atm by being so angry and upset I can barely speak to him at handover times, either that or I am crying...I hate the fact that he despises me and sees my career merely as an obstacle to his life.

What scares me is his rigid sticking to SE London and the school, surely a reasonable person seeing that I have struggled to find work here would at least offer to relocate to North London so that we could arrange custody more easily...handovers would be far easier to N London wherever I was living...he flat refuses to discuss anything or even indicate a preference. I asked was it worth even going to mediation on the residence issue if he insists on SE London, he refused to answer.

as it seems, he wants me commuting forever while he stays put in the family home with the kids and cats. It just doesn't seem right to me but posters here have made me think maybe he has got the upper hand and i will be seen as a selfish cow uprooting my traumatised children...I just thought surely better me than a nanny, but maybe others will not see it that way.

re seeing my career as an obstacle, I mean that it would surely be helpful to us both to try to help it along since without it I am surely going to be more of a long term financial burden to him....

If I was your dh I would be sticking to the current arrangement to be honest. I can't see any advantage to him in agreeing to a situation where he will spend less time with the children, and where over time that is likely to be more and more true. I can also absolutely see why you feel desperately trapped.

Shared care is I think ideal, and although your current set up is clearly stressful to you it probably works well for your children. Minimal change, continuity and their lives can continue in an understandable pattern.

The main problem is that it means that as parents you are quite stuck, because change is very difficult, as you are experiencing.

When dh and I separated we set things up in a similar way, and it really did work very well for the children. For us it was dh who wanted to move (and also him that had the affair and decided to move out of the family home). I said no. He had already made my life fairly hellish (although he too thought our breakup inevitable) and I didn't see any particular reason to make it easier for him, not to make our children's lives any more difficult than they already were. We were all settled in the part of London where we lived, and I really really wasn't prepared to think about any more change. Oh, and I would have fought tooth and nail to ensure the 50:50 was preserved, because once you slip under that it feels like you pretty much lose any ability to be a "proper" parent. Things were very very raw for at least a year, and until we could speak to each other without the anger and pain being dominant we really couldn't make any sensible decisions.

As it happens a year after that we decided to give things another go together and moved as a family to the States. I guess you never know where life can take you if you leave opportunities open.

I would try and hang on in there until the emotions die down a bit more. As you have the children for half the week going up North for 2/3 days is doable, if tiring (and in your weekend proposal you'd actually be making that journey twice a week anyway). In the meantime start putting your life and your emotions back together, keep on applying for jobs closer to home, and hopefully a better solution will become possible further down the line.

So, his rigid behavior hasn't changed.

Mediation can be a great tool, when then parties are equal, but it seems to me that you are letting him dictate to you what the terms are. No one can negotiate from this position.

You have made so many concessions and now are thinking about making more just to keep the peace.

The kids are better off with you. Yes, sometimes parents need child care, but if your DH is saying that he wants residence, or at least 50/50. Well, hiring in a nanny isn't really the same thing. What's the actual time he's spending with them?

You really need to get some legal advice. Mediation can run concurrent with this, and if you work out an agreement, then this can be the basis of a residence order.

You may need an advocate to represent your rights and those of the children. Ideally, it could be sorted out amicably, but maybe not.

If I was a solicitor, major alarm bells would be going off if I met a client who was so making major concessions.

ilovemydog we went into mediation to sort out arrangements last year and I basically caved in over everything out of guilt, depression, and the vain hope of a reconciliation at some point. If we had reconciled he had already said he would move out together nearer to my job, so it's not as if he's never considered it.

He's also well aware of what a narrow employment field I am in and how I have tried to get other jobs. It may not be relevant but I do also have clinical depression and was diagnosed with chronic fatigue due to stress which he knows about. My argument has been that it's surely in his interests for me to actually have a career as will cost him less in the long run...

Yes I do feel utterly trapped and have actually felt suicidal over all this, in fact I find myself fighting off a lot of those feelings daily. It doesn't help that this job is not just another job but the perfect job for me really.

I just feel it's inevitable somehow that he will not give an inch and because he now has the family home and the status quo, I will end up having to give up work because the current situation is making me ill...while his career appears to be going from strength to strength.

I am wondering about the family home- if I do end up having to stay here presumably I am entitled to a home of equal value? my flat now is quite a bit smaller and has difficult garden access.

Something that really got my goat recently was that he got two cats for the kids, something he knows I can't do because of a. my rented flat and b. my commute. I know it's not entirely rational but I was spitting.

In the end I think I am resigning myself to being a non custodial mother, no amount of money will compensate for that but I at least want to make sure I get a fair split.

x thanks for all advice.

I think that while you continue to see child residence as a battle over who will "win" between you and your ex, you're going to find it very hard to move forward as a separated family.

It's not about counting how many compromises you make versus how many compromises he makes (not least because he would probably come up with a very different list - that's just human nature). Residency is about what's best for the children. And stability and consistency is a huge part of that when parents split up. I know that when I split up with my ex the fact that the children stayed here in their home made a big difference for them. The fact that they stayed in the same school also made a big difference.

Mediation is not intended to be in lieu of proper legal advice. The processes are compatible with each other and neither are a substitute. It's possible to take a break in mediation to get legal advice and vice versa.

It doesn't seem to me that you are treating this as a battle. In fact, it seems to me that you are taking the opposite approach which is worrying. It isn't about fighting for the residence order which is on one extreme, with the other that you allow your ex to dictate the terms.

You need to know where you stand legally otherwise how are you going to know what's reasonable or not? The fact that you don't know where you stand as far as the matrimonial home means you need to find out.

As far as being a non custodial mother, why? Don't be resigned to this.

Please please please get some legal advice urgently!

yes thankyou ilovemydog, I don't agree with Snorbs that this is a 'battle', if it is it is not one I think anyone can 'win'...

try living it and see if it's then so easy to decide what's 'best for the children'...

And I resent the implication that I do not care about what is best for my children. I was the one who tried for a reconciliation (alright, I made the original stupid, massive mistake...). If I did not care about what is best for them I doubt I would be considering giving up work altogether...do you?

I just cannot talk to or negotiate with my ex it seems and that makes things very difficult.

it is times like this I wonder why I bother coming on mumsnet to be told I am selfish etc...but then for all that there has been some nice advice on here.

Thanks ilovemydog, I will be seeing a solicitor soon but am losing hope of a happy outcome for this.

x

and yes yes I know I came on here asking for opinions etc, but the curt oh-so-sensible tone of some posters is hard to take.

Please please don't let the past interfere with the future. I only asked about why you split up because your ex seems to be very bitter. The reasons for the split have zero influence on residence.

It would be one thing if the kids were established in school, but one is year 2, so could be moved. Besides, kids adapt.

At this stage, you need someone in your corner. Sounds like mediation has not really been beneficial, so perhaps time to take a break? You could always start again if you want, or when you are feeling stronger?

There is also the possibility that mediation is not the right forum at this stage for you to work out residence? Part of the criteria for mediation is that both parties want to resolve differences, so if you have been the one who is constantly making changes, then this is not really what mediation is about.

It's such a difficult time, but please don't give up.

OK, if you are feeling very pushed about then a solicitor might help. I found visiting one both depressing and strengthening. Depressing because it made it all very real, and strengthening because it was useful to know where I stood. I do think it's about the right person though, both in approach and because you have to feel OK about the person too (it's an odd thing to be explaining how things came to be with a stranger).

Oh and making compromises in the hope of a reconciliation is not about being weak. I decided that the one thing I wanted to be clear in my mind about is that I had done my utmost to make it work. That was for my own peace of mind, and although there were some hefty costs involved I don't regret it.

dittany when I said resigning myself I was wording it wrongly. I meant I have to acknowledge that might happen.

There are people telling me I am selfish to fight for them, people not...I have no idea what to do.

And once again, I resent the implication that I am saying this is all about me. If I were a non-custodial mother I would strain every sinew to get as much access as I could.

It seems that every time a mother complains about her own feelings in a situation like this, rather than posing as a saintly mannequin who has no feelings except those for her children, she opens herself to abuse, tbh.

Of course I want to put my children first. If I didn't I would bugger off out of London, which I've always hated, straight to my job and throw myself into it to forget all about H. Etc. Just because I do actually care about them doesn't mean I don't have confused, negative feelings myself.

Just because the Dad does not want to move the children out of the family home does NOT mean he doesn't love them or that he is only doing so out of spite for the mother - what a terrible thing to say.

OP I think you have exhausted yourself trying to do what is best for your children FWIW.

What about a complete career change? Are you actually divorced?

I would say I was the main carer but then we did both work full time. When we originally split ds2 was only one and I was travelling up with him to my job weekly and looking after him on my own. I looked after ds1 alone for 9 months then worked p/t for another year, etc.

So in terms of aggregate time, me. Plus he is rarely in before 7 in the evening. When I was around he was also out quite a lot of evenings schmoozing etc. It's only since we split that the Uberdad personality has emerged ;)

At the moment I also work part time so I can spend Mondays with the kids. He does not take any time off in the week.

Mmred you can see why the idea of a complete career change galls me when HE gets to keep his fantastic legal career without apparent interruption. This seems to be what I get for being the woman, i.e. my career was always secondary so last in first out. It stinks I think....what bloody sacrifices is he making???

And yes before anyone jumps on me I know what I would be doing in giving up work would be best for the children etc. So here I come, another woman claiming state pension in her 60s while he relaxes in his Tuscan villa. Grrrrrr. If anyone thinks that's a selfish thing to say so bloody be it.

And I will try to find work, but I have already found the ideal job for me with wonderful colleagues etc, the first job I have ever really liked. I have also been advised as to what a risky business it is leaving a tenured post in academia and hoping to find one again after years of childcare. It all just really, really stinks.

agingoth, I don't think anyone's implying you're selfish for wanting to fight for your children. Questions are being asked about whether it's best for the children for them to move so far away from their home, school and father in order to make your commute easier.

oh dittany btw, I moved out cos he refused to (his divorce petition included a claim to residence of the children requiring me to see them once per fortnight and he was advised that he must prove that he was the primary carer i.e. not leave family home).

The atmosphere was poisonous and vile, affecting us all especially ds1, I was hoping for reconciliation at the time so agreed to move out.

agingoth, that's another couple of posts from you full of what he did versus what you did and what he gets versus what you get... Now do you see why, to an outside observer, it could look like you're focussed on a you-vs-him battle?

well, Snorbs, I am not a saint. I would like ideally to fulfil just one or two of the hopes I originally had for my life and career. So yes I am resentful. I'm human.