First hearing - CAO / CAFCASS - Should I go into debt to pay for representation?

[ShuffleShuffleSpin]

Can anyone give me objective advice about whether I should risk attending the FHDRA as a litigant in person with a Mackenzie friend?

This is a CAO safeguarding case and CAFCASS is involved.

I have £50 in my bank account. I have a credit card I can use but I am terrified of being in over my head in debt. My ex husband is a high earner who financially abused me. He has been arrested for what he did to me physically (Rape, ABH, sexual assault) and he abused the children physically and emotionally. This is a children’s safeguarding hearing re child arrangements. We had to attend an emergency hearing in December and that wiped me out financially. I am now in arrears to my solicitor.

He will be fully represented by a barrister and a solicitor. He has access to personal cash and family money. I am sure finances will eventually be sorted out in the divorce but it’s going to take ages and I know he will fight that tooth and nail because he sees it as “his money” and our marital house is “his house because he bought it with his money” etc etc. He earned a health six figure income and made me use my meagre income to pay for many family expenses and refused budges and plans so it was impossible for me to save and I am the primary carer of our three children so my work has always been part time. Even when we had three children three and under, he told people, “my wife is self sustaining”. He treated me like an au pair, room and board and that’s it.

And now I have to figure out if I should pay £1800 for a barrister and about £2000 for a solicitor for this hearing. He is aggressive and has a good team around him. I was told the FHDRA is mainly procedural. I don’t want to get this wrong. I don’t want to make a bad decision but almost don’t trust my private pay solicitor bc she is encouraging litigation loans and credit cards and I have no clue what financial position I will be in after all of this.

I suspect legal aid will be approved for future hearings but you don’t know until you know.

Any advice?

I can’t tell you whether to be represented or not OP but I have gone through CAO v recently which culminated in a no contact order based on safety of the children. He harmed me and them. It will largely be procedural but the impact on you will be enormous so please have support with you. Be prepared for special measures to fail ( I’m not trying to scare you I’m trying to hep prepare you - they have failed every single time I have been in court with my perpetrator). Prior to the hearing your side needs to negotiate with his side, if I represented you will presumably have to do this. I always found my ex’s position statements on the day to be highly destabilising and a pack of lies. What does your Cafcass safeguarding letter look like?

The judges / magistrates are used to one side arriving totally lawyered up and one not. however it will be a long and very emotional day. As well as mackenzie friend, can you also have a real life friend with you, to be by your side all day? Even if they can’t go into the court room with you, as PP says, negotiation often takes place in the corridors etc and a friend will be invaluable.

Is this in England? If it’s a dv case you are entitled to legal aid and your solicitor should have done an assessment for it. Did that happen?

Yes, I have applied for legal aid. I was paying privately to a solicitor who did not take legal aid. I can no longer afford her and am in debt to her. My ex earned £280k last year and is now living with his parents for free and just bought a new camper can and iPhone 17. He did not share income with me. I have been added as a user on his credit card and that is it.

at the emergency hearing the judge ruled that my ex should only see the children twice per week, no overnights, supervised visits.

my CAFCASS phone call has not yet taken place so I don’t know what their safeguarding letter will look like.

ETA: my legal aid solicitor is not sure whether the legal aid will be approved prior to the hearing or not. I have not been on benefits and so needed to be approved with bank statements, tax returns, etc, showing how little I earn.

I have not yet had the cafcass phone call and so we don’t yet have the letter.

were you represented? Or did you represent yourself?

it seems like it would be overwhelming. But at the same time, the £6k of debt I am in is also overwhelming and my private solicitor was acting like it would be fine to just get a litigation loan bc my ex is a high earner. I just don’t know if she really has my best interests at heart.

i have an ISVA due to the rape and sexual assault investigation. She is not able to attend - I already asked her.

PS - I can ABSOLUTELY imagine the destabilising pack of lies. My ex’s solicitor has already tried some of that. What I am learning is that it’s apparently best not to give it much attention. I am just worried about being a sitting duck if it comes to negotiating alone.

when you say special measures failed, could you elaborate?

I was represented but I totally understand your concerns about debt. The costs are eye watering. I spent about £50k+

my barrister and sister both told me that the position statements were just noise and to ignore it, but he knows me so well. He knew exactly how to get under my skin, and although it was largely irrelevant to the child proceedings it enraged me not being able to respond to it. It really did get to me.

with negotiations we didn’t really get far because dealing with him is like dealing with an alien. He took some really bizarre requests all the way to the judge because I just wouldn’t budge eg requesting my medical records, ordering that I report to him on my children and what they do on an daily basis, ordering reports on extra curricular activities we did together etc. not a single request was granted by the judge.

re special measures failing;
fhdra: they took me into the wrong waiting area so I was literally face to face with him; I had to walk past his parents four times due to adjournments (it was a truly chaotic hearing) and they stared me down. His side didn’t wait for us to vacate the courtroom and came round the screen onto my side so again we were face to face.
DRA: the screen wasn’t long enough so as he came in he could see me and I could see him; when seated we could see each other until I insisted that something was done.
criminal court: waiting areas were meant to be separate they weren’t. Entrances weren’t separate due to a storm so we saw each other then. Had to walk in front of him and be in the same room as him on three separate occasions due to all of these cock ups, including with one of my children who was the victim. Absolutely dreadful experience.

at every stage I was asked ‘sure you need special measures?’ For a DV heavy case where there were criminal proceedings running alongside as well as a non mol. It feel a totally barbaric way to deal with victim survivors. I’m not saying this to scare you, maybe I was just really unlucky, I wouldn’t want anyone else to be as wrong footed as I was.

for your cases focus on the facts. Don’t get drawn into any bullshit he or his team try to use. Run your own race, centre the children, centre their wishes and feelings. Always return to any safeguarding concerns.

for your cafcass call, be open and honest. Mine was genuinely supportive, but it came after a call with children’s services who had given me and my children extensive support and so much of the abuse was very well documented by them. She told me her recommendation on the phone so I wasn’t worrying about the content of the letter (it was a recommendation for no form
of contact which is what the final ruling was too). It sounds like you have other agencies involved if you have ISVA, and I hope that the evidence will help you. Keep speaking here if you find it helpful.

These are the steps to end this situation. It may feel like it will never conclude but it will. It will. And you can get through it, I promise you that.

Thank you. This is so helpful. £50k is just so much money.

I have just learned that I got declined for Legal Aid for financial reasons - by a cutoff of earning just £100/month over what they want due to two self employment clients I recently took on. I could cry. I have literally just £150 in my bank account as right now all of my money from my paycheck is going to pay back lawyers for an earlier emergency hearing.

I’ve been the primary caregiver of our children. I moved to the U.K. (from USA) to be with my then-husband when we got married, so I had a career setback and literally just (almost) finished retraining haven’t yet restarted my career bc we had children and I was home with them full time for so many years. My ex did not share finances with me. He did as hoc bank transfers to my account. I always worked a little bit even when the children were smaller (they are now 10, 9, and 7) and all the money I earned went to buying them clothes, food, activities, etc., as well as my buying clothes I needed. My ex never helped with any of that.

my solicitor is now saying I should do a legal services payment order because I literally cannot afford representation and with this being such a complex case and things (such as whether we need a fact finding hearing) being decided at the FHDRA I think I need representation of some kind.

thank you for saying it is possible to get through this. I am overwhelmed right now. I might actually lose my job bc I am too busy with all of this plus caring for my children to work properly. My kids are young and I worry that HE will spend the next decade dragging me back into court for various things. Can he do that?

the thing is, he has also been telling the kids he wants 3.5 days with them and telling them to tell me that. I worry they will also tell Cafcass that. Their dad cries in front of them an acts like I am the bad guy and he is my victim. My eldest remembers what dad is like more clearly but the younger two might not as they seemed to be less victimised by their dad and he has had supervised visits for the past few months which seems to have stopped the ear twisting and rough interactions.

ETA - thank you for sharing how special measures failed. I am so sorry you went through that!!! How stressful. It sounds like you maintained composure during a very difficult time but that would rattle anyone. My ex was arrested for rape, ABH, sexual assault and common assault and the did use a screen that was tall enough during the emergency Hearing we had but I still accidentally saw him in the lobby and it filled me with terror due to the look he gave me. I always knew that by exposing him and divorcing him I would be crossing the Rubicon and there would be no way to be safe around him again. He doesn’t do compromise or fair negotiation.

Hi ShuffleShuffleSpin Firstly, I'm so sorry for what you've been through with your ex.

I look on 'legal' every now & then since my own Child court case, & just wanted to offer you my support & say that I'm here if you need a chat.

My own case went very badly for me (which was expected) so I won't go into that.

I was refused legal aid (isn't that a humiliating process on its own?! Having to beg for money & account for every penny spent in your bank account!) so I just had a small local legal charity working with me.

The first hearing, I had one of the charity come in with me as my Mackenzie friend. There wasn't any chatting between us before we got in, as my ex had made it clear that he would not budge on a single thing so we didn't see the point.

We were sat separately as is standard in our court (men one end, females the other, round a corner) my Mackenzie friend asked for the screen between us, as had already been requested, & it was fine, they got me to walk in first & sit behind the screen then they got him to come in (weird feeling as I couldn't see him but knew he was there!)

We were in & out quickly. They just went over the points, 'Parent A wants this, parent B wants this, SW (we had SW not Cafcass) agrees with parent B. Any major changes? Nope. Stays the same for now & we will schedule another hearing'.

They walked my ex out first then came back for me.

The second hearing they (the court) majorly messed up so had to reschedule for months later which was devastating to me. It was even shorter than the first one as they basically said 'We've messed up so you will have to come back again, get out'.

They again had my ex leave before me but what they (obviously) can't control is the fact that there are floor length windows in the lobby so I saw my ex, his GF & the SW all stood outside together laughing, whilst I was in floods of tears & just trying to make it down the stairs (my poor Mackenzie friend sat with me on the floor in the lobby whilst I sobbed & they made sure my ex had left)

Final hearing was the worst one as it was so long. We had QLR's to question each other so I had my Mackenzie friend & my QLR with me which was good, as it gave me a little extra support.
They were again very respectful & actually had security come & walk my ex out of the building & then came back & got me & informed me that he'd left.

It's very emotionally difficult but you WILL get through it. You CAN get through it. It feels impossible but I promise you that you can. You can do this. You will feel like you have nothing left to give but you will find it deep within your soul.

I hope that nothing in my post worries you I just wanted to give you an idea of how things were for me.

Our situations are obviously very different but I just wanted you to know that I'm here, if you need anything.

Hello, I am sorry you are going through this. Another perspective. You don’t need representation for the FHDRA. You really don’t. I have represented myself at all hesrings to date including a non mol and children’s hearings. The FHDRA for us was non attended so happened without us there. All to date have been basically procedural. I am not strong and I am experiencing trauma. But until I get to a hearing where it isn’t going to shuffle to something I cannot handle, I will self represent and save ghe small amount of money I have. I get tired out sometimes after hearings so I would advise that you have someone who can check on you afterwards and before if possible. I stopped reading his position statements. Literally it has no impact and I know what he will say. I also have a couple of screens so I can read my statement. I take the odd note. Mainly I let the judge talk. I wish I could have also used my IDVA’s words to tyr judge ‘madam, there’s no evidence. There’s no professional evidence ‘ etc. I get triggered and I am working on it. Buy time and money for this hesring. Use chat gpt. In seconds it will build you a position statement and your case. Don’t be scared to tell the judge you feel scared and would like special measures if not employed. FHDRA is honestly stepping stone to next stage. Save your money and feel proud - I was told by a barrister I know only vaguely that it’s powerful when he comes armed and you are you telling the truth. Vulnerable is ok. Let us know if you need more help or suooort

My first court hearing I took my solicitor, my ex didn’t turn up, he had moved house and didn’t get the letter . ( well he had but he was able to plausibly say he hadn’t) I was about £600 down for absolutely nothing. I would not get yourself into debt. Just speak to the judge like a normal person and make sure everything you talk about has the kids as your focus. Not your feelings, dc feelings, not how you have been affected, how they have been affected etc. like a pp said, judge will be used to people being unrepresented, it s probably more common than not. It’s completely different to a criminal court. I couldn’t afford a solicitor anymore so just went by myself, it was fine. Good luck. McKenzie friend is a good shout .

I’m a family solicitor. At the FHDRA, pretty much all that will be ordered is whatever Cafcass recommend in the safeguarding letter. If money is an issue I wouldn’t bother with representation for this hearing, it would be better spent on the DRA and/or final hearing.

Thank you. I was wondering, though, what about the fact that the judge may decide whether or not to have a fact finding hearing? I was worried that there might be some procedural decision that I don't fully comprehend at the time, and that my husband's solicitor might out-manoeuvre me and take advantage of the fact that I'm not represented. Especially where I feel a bit overwhelmed by the prospect of preparing for the hearing and facing my abuser in court. Is this possible?

cafcass will usually recommend a fact finding hearing if it’s necessary, if they don’t and you want one you can push for one and explain why it’s necessary (I.e. that the allegations would be a bar to contact)

The only thing that puts me off doing that is the cost. I hear it is very expensive. But I do wonder if the allegations of what he has done to me will bear on safeguarding and I think that they should bc one of the core problems is he does not listen to or respect the needs and perspectives of others. Whether that is him continuing to have sex with me while I beg him to stop or whether it is listening to the voice of our child when he asks him to please end the phone call bc he wishes to get off the phone. Or to my little one when he says he needs the toilet and my ex ignores him and says “no just do the next thing and stay at the playground” and my little one almost poops his pants bc he held it too long. He does not tune in to the experiences of others.

Cafcass + children’s services said no fact finding was necessary in my case due to the depth of evidence. What happened at the first fhdra was that I was ordered to produce an evidenced schedule of harm for a subsequent fhdra I produced a 23page document listing the worst acts that I could bear to discuss (ie a lot was left out) together with what evidence I would rely on eg section 47s, cp plans, police records, cpoms, oceans of text messages and emails from him. He was then given the opportunity to respond to these prior to the hearing, and he made substantial admissions of significant abuse (despite minimising and blaming me and the children etc). This meant at the second fhdra the judge said a ffh was not needed because harm was established.

Is your child open to ss? If so at what level? If they are then cafcass will defer to then

Hi! I just wanted to come back here to update you all. I hope someone sees this. My ex’s position statement WAS a destabilising pack of lies - as you said. And it was intimidating because he hired a Kings Counsel barrister to defend him, which truly made me glad that I had a barrister although I have NO CLUE how I will pay for this. I have qualified for universal credit now so I will definitely qualify for legal aid this time around (I pray …) and hopefully can avoid what would ultimately be attending as a litigant in person against a KC barrister. God help me. My ex is using my profession against me - I am still a trainee because I began slowly retraining while my kids are in school- but I work in the mental health professions and ex is arguing that I have used all of that to my advantage and that I have been scheming elaborately for the past few years in order to take the children from him and he flatly denied everything. Absolutely everything. He is making his own rebuttal to my NMO/Occupation order which was filed in December. An elaborate rebuttals by a KC barrister. The judge followed CAFCASS safeguarding recommendation and ex still has supervised contact. Less than before. He wanted to hire his own independent social worker at an eye watering £9k because he argued that I charmed CAFCASS and the local authority. Thankfully judge said local authority are trained to see through charm and no to ISW. Cafcass said there was enough evidence to avoid fact finding hearing. My ex did not want a fact find. If we do need one, I do have plenty of chronological evidence. Sadly I deleted the two photos of injuries (one to a child and one to me) that I had. But I have other evidence as well as reports to professionals. This entire things is unspeakably stressful. I am still signed off work.

I’m here OP. Well done. Fucking hell I bet it’s all still sinking in, what you had to go through and what you had to listen to and read. What a dick he is. And it sounds like the judge and Cafcass absolutely have the measure of him. If you, he and Cafcass are saying no ffh then I don’t see why one will be ordered. You are one step closer to amputating him. The steps are horrible. They are painful and destabilising and dehumanising. But you are closer now than you were before. It’s a process and it will end. I promise it will end.

I’m glad you’re off work, this is what needs to happen because you need your strength - mental and physical - to get through this. But look, you are getting through it. You survived this round and his contact has reduced. That’s a fact, hold onto it and keep going. You can do this. I know it’s hard. It’s unspeakable, and being gagged by family court only compounds things. Keep going one day at a time 🖤

Thank you for taking the time to reply. I’m really thankful for your perspective. You get it. The fact that it will end gives me hope. In my case, my two younger children are sad about not seeing daddy and don’t really understand, and my eldest is angry in general after all he has been through. We have a lot of recovery to get started on. It feels like it will never end but it helps so much to hear from you that it is possible to get thru this.

This afternoon, after I wrote this above post, I learned that ex has appealed the FHDRA decision and wants his proposition of the independent social worker to be reconsidered. The level of stress here is just unreal. Meanwhile he has not done the anger management program that children’s services recommended to him (I started freedom programme right away). He also doesn’t want our family worker to support him and only met with her one time. I think she is excellent and I have had worries about my kids bc my son kicks our daughter so she will help us with that.

His appeal wont be granted just because he doesnt like the outcome. He'd have to prove it was a legally flawed decision.

Honestly a KC turning out in a "straight forward" case - by which i mean no disrespect to the awful impact on you or your children but there aren't novel areas of law or extended fact finding scheduled.. just looks like throwing money at something to bully the other person. As you saw judges see through it!!

Good luck. You've got this!

Have you asked at a phone shop if your pics can be retrieved?.
I would suggest (4 years of brutal court case with exh) prepare like my driving instructor told me pre test.... 2 paracetamols to keep your temp down - will rise when stressed... And a Mars for energy..
Don't ime take someone else's pain killers( for their back pain) for my 2 week long migraine) and be out of it for the final hearing...

Good idea re photos. I checked my iCloud but I will ask. I wish I had not deleted them.

four years!!!!?? What a nightmare. Goodness. How do you survive that financially? Are things ok now?