Father who lives abroad has applied for joint custody

[Custodyapplication]

DC is 4 and has never lived with his father as he moved back to his home country before DC was born and only had a few visits with father. Had no contact for the majority of the 4 years and none for 2+ years. Just received a letter that was addressed to my previous address which is another language but tried to interpret it and it says he’s applied for joint custody and there’s a court appointment next month in his home country which I’m supposed to attend. Child is disabled (father not aware of this) and there’s no way I’ll be able to take them to another country or get a babysitter to go and I have no idea who to contact/can’t speak the language. What will likely happen from this? Father has had no interest and was abusive/ controlling and seemed to be very jealous of DC, so I’m very worried about if child will have to spend time with him. This has come after an CMS application was done 3 and half years ago through REMO (intentional one) and has recently had an update on to say it’s progressing in his country so I assume that’s why he’s suddenly applied for joint custody.

Seeing as this father hasn't even seen the child in 2 years ( half his life) has not been in touch either so doesn't even know where he lives etc then I doubt she'd go to such extremes.

And a reception teacher handing over a child to an unknown person that they have never met and the child doesnt know is really not likely. Schools are becoming like fort knox these days

Usually cases that has happened have been older kids whose father are known to school and the kids actually know heir dad

The French court could make an order for a DNA test or even custody and the Ex could try to enforce via the UK courts which could be messy and expensive to unwind.

The OPs best bet is to engage with the French court and establish the fact that the child lives in the Uk and that the Ex needs to go through the UK legal system.

Once the French court recognises the UK courts has jurisdiction any case should be dismissed.

The French court doesn't need to recognise that the UK has jurisdiction.

The French court can proceed to have him recognised as the father of the child by the French state.

This would have absolutely no bearing on whether he is recognised as the father of the child by the UK or has parental responsibility.

The French court cannot make an order for custody because the child is habitually resident in the UK and therefore not within their jurisdiction. Even if they agree to recognise him as the child's father, anything beyond that is completely outside their sphere of influence.

I would actually be very surprised if the letter the OP has received has come from a real court and isn't just something the father did using ChatGPT or an unscrupulous lawyer who owes him a favour. If it is from a real court, it has not been correctly served on the OP because it was sent to the wrong address, so the OP has no obligation to respond, and if a solicitor advises her that it is better to respond, all the response needs to say is, "We are not sure what lies this man has told you to get you to send this letter, but the child in question has been habitually resident in the UK since birth, and as such the French legal system has no jurisdiction to intervene in this case."

@AnSolas The rights of the child come first. In the uk and in France. Op should get the uk passport and consult a specialist family solicitor for peace of mind. From most available evidence the French court has no jurisdiction to order anything about this dc. He’s British, he’s here and so is his mum. His dad isn’t on the birth certificate. This letter (if it’s genuine) is just about revenge for op seeking money.

The two legal systems will recognise each others child custody court orders as they are both part of the Hague Convention. Therefore a French court is highly unlikely to process any application at all once they are informed the child is in the UK and has always lived there.

Service is a problem for the Ex but if the OP fails to appear the courts dont know if it was bad service or the OPs choice.

Its likely the court action is prompted by the OPs claim case so his getting a 50/50 French ruling may be his only objective.

The French courts can issue warrants for failure to comply with its ruling and if the charge is arrestable and carried a prison term that could be converted into an EU wide warrant.

Its unlikely that it would go so far but if Ex is abusive and has started to use the courts to his advantage its much better (and cheper) that the OP stops any French court actions before they start.

But he won't get a French ruling granting him 50:50.

If it is actually a real letter from a real court, the only way he can have got them to send such a letter is by lying to them about the child's habitual residence.

If they were aware that the child has been habitually resident in the UK since birth, they would have said to this man, "This has nothing to do with us, you will need to go through the UK court system."

So if it is legitimate, which it may very well not be, all that is required is a, "this is a British child who has lived in the UK since birth, this has nothing to do with you, kindly fuck off" letter.

And if the OP ignores the letter on the grounds that it was sent to the wrong address, in the unlikely event that this man tries to get the French court to make an order in her absence and have it enforced by the UK courts, he will rack up an insane amount of legal costs, and maybe one day she'll get a summons to appear before a UK court, where she can say, "I never received any letters because they were sent to the wrong address, this is the first I've heard of it, and anyway, the child is resident here and has been since birth." At which point the UK court would decline to enforce the French court order, most likely send a written response to the French court saying, "We have jurisdiction here, not you", the French court will not be able to order the OP to do anything or pay any of the (by now extremely hefty) legal costs that have been incurred, and the French court will most likely give this man a rap over the knuckles for lying and wasting their time and order him to pay all the costs himself.

She is certainly not going to be the subject of an EU wide arrest warrant for failing to respond to a letter sent to the wrong address by a court with no jurisdiction.

I agree Miss Scarlet.

Ive been through this, but with a different country both Hague signatories and ratified each side. With an abuser.

However, the country where the child was not habitually resident refused to a aide by its own law, which was as coear as day that the child was not and neber had been habitually resident - likely because the abuser claimed international kidnapping and claimed a bunch of lies to build his story.

So, unfortunately I did have to engage. It took two ridiculous years of back and forth and them refusing to even acknowledge the court order from the habitually resident country, but we go there in the end with them having to concede that they had zero jurisdiction.

I agree with most all of your post

And think any court action is going to be about blocking the OPs claim.

She is certainly not going to be the subject of an EU wide arrest warrant for failing to respond to a letter sent to the wrong address by a court with no jurisdiction.

^ is not about the letter but rather the power the court has to make an order and what happens once something is in the system and how an abusive Ex could use it to harrass the OP.

I totally agree that it is a very unlikely outcome.

Rather I think MN has had lots of examples of men who are willing to spend money harrassing their childs mother rather than just paying their share.

And that the OP should not ignore the letter if it is actually from the court.

Well @Custodyapplication I am happy to take a look at the letter for you and let you know whether it looks legit or not.

So how does a Eu wide warrent affect someone in the uk? Remember Brexit?

What happened ? Guess?

Yep extradition arrests still happen:
https://www.gov.uk/guidance/extradition-processes-and-review

A warrant is just housekeeping for the all the countries so that they dont end up a safe haven for people running from the Courts. Its a fastpass process if the crime/charges are pre-agreed to qualify as an arrestable offence but the extradition still has to be a aproves by the UK courts.

The risk is that the Ex would try use the French Courts to harrass the OP into giving up her claim. If he filed that the child is born and raised in the UK the French courts should tell him to go to the UK and get a ruling there. If this has not happened he either lied (as per spicetails) and/or the court is overreaching its authority (or its a fake document).

So the OP is better off stoping any court process as early as possible.

Extradition arrests are not anything to do with the EU. They also apply to many other countries, as shown in the link you posted.

👍

Look, I'm sorry, but this is incorrect.

Please don't scaremonger. This is stressful enough for the OP without leading her to believe that this could result in there being a warrant out for her arrest.

The court summons - if it is a real court summons which it may well not be - is invalid for two reasons.

1. It was not served to the correct address.
2. The court has no jurisdiction in this case.

A court summons must be served to the correct address in order to be valid. Admittedly if there is no response the court has no way of knowing whether it was not correctly served or the recipient simply ignored it. It is possible that if she does not respond the court may issue a default judgment in favour of the father. However, if this happens, and the OP later becomes aware of it, all she has to say is that (1) the court summons was invalid because it was not sent to the correct address; and (2) the child has been habitually resident in the UK since birth and so the French court has no jurisdiction. Either one of these facts would be enough to have the default judgment set aside.

It is possible, but unlikely, that the French court might issue a default judgment in favour of the father and then ask the UK court system to enforce it. After investigating, the UK court system would then decline to enforce it on the grounds that (1) the court summons was not correctly served, and (2) the child is habitually resident in the UK and so the French court has no jurisdiction. And that would be the end of the matter so far as the French court is concerned. They may then order the father to pay legal costs, but that is not the OP's problem.

There will be no warrant out for the OP's arrest and no issues at any EU border, because the European Arrest Warrant only concerns serious criminal conduct and not minor civil law issues such as this. As such, the OP would only be at risk if the father alleged that she had kidnapped the child, in which case there would be a police investigation in France before any arrest warrant could be issued. And even the most cursory police investigation would soon reveal that the child was not born in France, is not known to the French authorities, has not yet been recognised as a French citizen, there is no legally recognised filial link between this man and the child, there is no record of the child ever having lived with this man or ever having lived in France, and so there is no evidence whatsoever that the OP could possibly have kidnapped her child from France.

Basically this man is being very silly, trying to scare the OP into dropping her claim for child support. Pursuing this matter will most likely cost him an awful lot of money in irrecoverable legal fees and possible court fines, and it will not absolve him of his obligation to pay child support or get him any access to his child (assuming he even wants that). Anything he does in France is a total waste of time and (his own) money because France has no jurisdiction here.

If he actually wants contact with his child he will need to first apply to the UK court to be added to the birth certificate, and then start proceedings in the UK regarding the child's residence arrangements.

He has absolutely no hope of getting any kind of shared residence unless he gets a visa to come and live in the UK, finds a job and a place to live which is close to where the OP lives and where her child is at school, and applies to the court then. The UK court is certainly not going to order that the child goes to live in France with a near stranger.

For what it's worth though @Custodyapplication, there are two major advantages to your child if the father does secure legal recognition of their relationship (particularly in France).

One is that your child will have French citizenship and therefore all the benefits of an EU passport.

The other is that if this man dies leaving any money to inherit, your child will be legally entitled to some or all of it, because this is mandatory in France. If you have children you cannot disinherit them. Worth bearing in mind.

It’s not scaremongering - abusive men do it all the time. Manage to convince courts that have no jurisdiction of the most insane claimed, often ex-parts. It happens frequently in the states. but no, it wouldn’t result in an extradition arrest. It might result in arrest if op sets foot in France - this had happened to women in the states where an abuser is screaming ‘INTERNATIONAL KIDNAPPING’ - which is why ill never set foot in the states ever again.

But you are right - the French court has no jurisdiction and the document was not correctly served.

But how often do men manage to get a warrant for a woman's arrest on the grounds that she is alleged to have kidnapped her child and taken them abroad, when the father is not on the child's birth certificate, the child was not born in the country in question, has never lived there and the authorities have no record of the child's existence?

That's a tall order for even the most abusive man.

And let's not forget that the EU and the UK are not like the US. We have more respect for due process here and don't detain people without evidence, unlike in the US where they will point a gun first and ask questions later.

Those are fair point - goes to show ik used to litigating in the Wild West (unless it’s trying to use Hague to rerun a kidnapped child - then they move at a glacial pace and children often age out of the statute - America is a disgrace)

@MissScarletInTheBallroom my point is that the OP should not ignore the letter. She needs to establish if it is from the French court system and if it is to get proper legal advice.

Informing the French court system that the child has always lived in the UK may be the quickest and fastest way to stop any French court case rather trying to unwind a process started by the Ex.

The fact that he left the UK without establishing even a basic right to be on the birth cert strongly indicates that his objective is to force the OP to give up the claim for child support.

The child custody will remain with in the UK court system and the Ex would (as you say ) have to get the UK courts to make a ruling on what is in the best interest of the child. The fact that the child is young, has a disability, and (I assume) cant speak french would make it highly unlikely that even a short visit to France would be likely approved and that contact would be restricted to UK locations.

Yes ^ agree that it gives her child duel citizenship which could be otherwise hard to establish without the EXs agreement.

Whereas France is famous for its bureaucracy, and although this is not my area of law, I'm 99.9% certain that in order to initiate a claim for shared custody of a child in France, you would need to provide a dossier of documents as long as your arm. And the first document on that list would be the child's birth certificate.

From what I can tell from the OP's posts, the only documentary evidence of this child's existence as far as the French authorities are concerned (and the only documentary evidence acknowledging a parental link between the father and the child) is her claim for child maintenance.

I would expect that the claim for child maintenance includes details such as the child's date and place of birth and confirms that they are resident in the UK (otherwise the OP would be making an application for child maintenance in France and not through the international system).

This is the main reason why I think this is probably not a real court summons. I think he would fall at the very first hurdle in any French legal proceedings.

To give you some context about French bureaucracy, I had my first application for French citizenship rejected because of a date error, and on my second attempt my application was held up because the person checking my file noticed that my father's birth certificate said he was born in Warrington whereas my birth certificate gave his place of birth as Manchester, and they made me get my own birth certificate corrected and re-translated before they would progress my application further. So I think the chances that the French court system would (a) not require a huge amount of paperwork about the child and (b) not notice that the only evidence that he is the child's father is an application for child support which confirms that the child is resident in the UK, are extremely low.

As for any potential kidnapping claim, the fact that the OP has made a claim for child maintenance is actually strong evidence to rebut any allegation of kidnapping. If you had illegally removed your child from their country of residence, you would not then send an application saying, "Yes, hello, I am the mother of Jack-Louis Rosbeef, we live at 1 England Road, England, Jean-Louis Frog is his father and I would like him to pay child support please." And Jean-Louis Frog probably wouldn't wait four years to alert the authorities.

Of course you can, otherwise every scumbag that doesn't want to step up would refuse to go on the birth certificate. If you're unmarried, the farther can only be included on the certificate if they are present when the child is registered, so if he left while op was pregnant then it would be impossible to put him on the birth certificate.

If he does not believe he is the farther, he can prove this to CMS (or equivalent) with a DNA test, but if he was one of the people who created the child, he has to pay, even if he didn't sign the birth certificate.

Yes I do think it would be of benefit for DC to have dual citizenship in case they would like to spend time in France/EU when they’re older.

The child maintenance amount would likely be very little as the father had a low income and likely still does, but he does own multiple properties - which he told me shortly after DC birth that he had already written his will to exclude DC as they are family properties and he wanted them to remain in his family and he does not consider DC to be a part of his family.

I’m not totally against the father having supervised visits, and in the beginning I very much tried to encourage this as I thought it was important for DC, but I do not think he would be able to appropriately care for DC or that his motives are good and the few visits he has had have not gone well.

So he can't go and live in a country where he does not speak the language

Don't be daft

It’s pretty obvious he’s only doing this because he doesn’t want to pay child support so he’s using legal system to harass.