Being dismissed for gross misconduct based on nasty gossip

[Vossisdoss]

Someone I used to work with, who has now moved to another department in the same company called me yesterday to say that she has been suspended, and they are investigating her for gross misconduct with a view to dismissing her.

She is being accused of taking annual leave and not logging it onto the system and also exploiting sick leave, by taking time off when she’s not sick. It looks like all of her colleagues have ganged up on her to support this. She said she can prove she logged onto the computer when they are saying she was on holiday (but they are saying she could have done this from Spain) and her sick leave doesn’t look too awful. She was signed off by her doctor for three weeks after surgery, and there’s been the odd self certified day here and there. Apparently she was seen shopping and in her garden when she was recovering from surgery, and this is what has triggered this.

She’s worked there for twenty years and is so worried that she is going to lose her job. The hearing is next week, and she said that her colleagues have essentially thrown her under a bus - eg saying she came back from her surgery with “a Mediterranean tan” and “didn’t look sick”.

She contacted me as I used to be a union rep. I’ve told her to contact her rep ASAP before the hearing. But can they do this when there is no proof?

I have mine stamped every time I enter and leave an EU country - it's what they voted for

This.

She can explain the nature of the sickness and there's no question that thr GP note is fraudulent.
She can simply explain the nature of the illness and her ability to conduct activities such as buying food so she could eat, and convalescing in the garden

It should be fine

Yep there will be stamps!

I used to deal with this sort of thing as a manager in my previous role.

Like others have said it’s important she accesses representation from her TU for any meetings and dealings she has with her employer.

For issues that fall under gross misconduct they can usually immediately suspend if there’s reasonable doubt which it seems has happened here by the reports from her colleagues.

If she has evidence to prove she was infact ill then that should be sufficient. Looking tanned is not evidence she was on holiday and it would be ridiculous for an employer to take that into account.

Any certified sickness should be discounted as that is considered enough. Unless your friend is hiding things from you and there’s more to this I’d be very surprised if they do anything in terms of dismissal. I suspect they are having to investigate due to the reasonable doubt but it should all be concluded when they look into the circumstances and evidence

From experience it’s really hard to dismiss people without solid evidence and facts. Hearsay alone from office gossips is not grounds for this. Employers are (usually) careful when it comes to things like this

Three weeks off after surgery is to recuperate. Doctors are not in the habit of giving sick notes for nothing - they know roughly how long these things take. In my experience over the years, they tend to be less than generous with time off and you have to go back for another certificate.

Towards the end of sick leave you are expected to pick up the threads of life, so going out shopping, seeing friends is perfectly normal. You probably are exhausted after a couple of hours. It is no way like working a full day and commuting. There might be an element of mental health sickness involved too. Advice for mh matters involves going out and about as much as possible.

Colleagues are behaving like kids in school - oh you can't be ill, I saw you outside. You're allowed to be ill and be outside - in most cases it makes you feel better.

I'd like to address the tan issue you mentioned in another post. There are other possibilities than going on holiday:

Jaundice - can look like a tan to an untrained eye
Sitting outside every day
Using a sunbed - some people feel better with a tan
Using fake tan or bronzer to cover up being pale.
I could add more, but you get the drift?

Employer/employees are being outrageous.

This. Glad the OP wasn’t my rep if she’s this clueless.

Thankfully it's the informed medical experts who make these decisions and not you.

Update?

If I were hear I'd get lawyered up and negotiate a settlement agreement. If everyone gangs up on you like that there is no going back.

Being on sick leave means that you are not well enough to work - NOT that you have to stay in bed.

I have been on holiday when I have been off sick - 3 days in Portugal just after minor surgery and when I was extremely stressed following the death of my mother. The surgery meant I could not walk the distances I needed to at work, the stress meant I was more of less incapable of rational thought and wasn't able to concentrate enough to do my job. Neither of those things meant I wasn't able to go to an airport (driven by my DH) hop on a plane (DH looked after the passports and the luggage) hop onto the shuttle bus, and have 3 days AI holiday in the warm not having to think about anything for a while.

She doesn’t need to do this!!! If you’re signed off by a doctor, you can do whatever you choose to do to aid your recovery. It’s nobody’s business if you are shopping or recuperating in the Med! This situation sounds horrendous and I hope she has union support.

There are people who do have time off longer than is needed, or are to be blunt faking ill health, and so I can understand why because of such people there is unhappiness at anyone sick for a period. As for GP sick notes, in one place I worked I could name the surgery where you went to for a sick note as opposed to medical treatment, and another where I was not seen by a GP but completed a form (after surgery at the local hospital).

However, allegations of falsifying matters and therefore gross misconduct need to be on evidence not gossip, and a person should have proper representation.

Maybe people on here could use the little brain cells a little more.

Even an office based job is 8 hours a day. I think it's considerably more demanding than sitting around a pool or even just walking around a town on holiday.

I really hope that some of the posters on here neither work in HR, nor manage anyone. Because they are totally clueless.

Oh and to comment on this as well "even so, there are usually some light duties that can be done instead and travelling is relatively physical."

Most employers do not make allowances. Once you are back, you are back and expected to work at full strength!

People incorrectly correcting people #39

Agree with this. People on sick leave post injury in the Summer usually get brown as they are out in the garden !

Honestly, it's really hard to believe she is in so much trouble, for being signed off after an operation. They can't sack her if she has a sick line without proof, there must be solid evidence she was doing things, she shouldn't have been doing 🤔

20 years service! If there's not solid evidence they are wide open for a seriously expensive tribunal! But obviously you already know this. I know she's your friend but, if this was someone on here with her story would you believe them?

Yes they do. Since Brexit

They don’t stamp passports anymore.
Yes they do. Since Brexit

JFC. It's been five days since this post. Does it not occur to people that it might have been answered multiple times since then? RTFT, people, or at least scroll back through the last page or so.

Just read that someone else has answered this. Not all of us have the time or energy to read the whole thread and just answer a query without thinking….

Please just fucking stop it.

I have not read the whole threat, sorry.
But from your opening post congratulations to your friend! Surely it does not feel like this to them now, but once they take this to court, they will get a huge huge compensation!
They need to get to their union and start proceedings immediately.
They need to take all documentation they can get copies of and any evidence of logging and sick leave taken, which HR should indeed have presented they with at the time of dismissal, but seeing how they have done this, I would not be so sure.

Regarding holidays abroad, just in case any of you do not know and you do need it one day: the Border Agency does keep a full record of your exits and entries in the country, at least if you flew over there- not sure about the crossing on ferries or tunnel before Brexit.
They will send you a copy if you require one. Easy peasy.

Common sense would say that since that post is nearly a week old the issue will have been addressed.

I wish people wouldn't post rubbish like this.

OP's friend has not been dismissed. OP fears that is what will happen, but so far this is just a disciplinary investigation. Unless and until OP's friend is dismissed, she does not have a case and cannot start proceedings.

If she is dismissed she may have a case for unfair dismissal. That is unlikely to give her "huge huge compensation". There will be compensation, yes, but it won't be huge.

This. I was looking into some laws regarding sick leave, recently, and came across the fact that being signed off work doesn't mean you can't do anything else. Surprising, but true.