Being dismissed for gross misconduct based on nasty gossip

[Vossisdoss]

Someone I used to work with, who has now moved to another department in the same company called me yesterday to say that she has been suspended, and they are investigating her for gross misconduct with a view to dismissing her.

She is being accused of taking annual leave and not logging it onto the system and also exploiting sick leave, by taking time off when she’s not sick. It looks like all of her colleagues have ganged up on her to support this. She said she can prove she logged onto the computer when they are saying she was on holiday (but they are saying she could have done this from Spain) and her sick leave doesn’t look too awful. She was signed off by her doctor for three weeks after surgery, and there’s been the odd self certified day here and there. Apparently she was seen shopping and in her garden when she was recovering from surgery, and this is what has triggered this.

She’s worked there for twenty years and is so worried that she is going to lose her job. The hearing is next week, and she said that her colleagues have essentially thrown her under a bus - eg saying she came back from her surgery with “a Mediterranean tan” and “didn’t look sick”.

She contacted me as I used to be a union rep. I’ve told her to contact her rep ASAP before the hearing. But can they do this when there is no proof?

"As for tribunals they are expensive, very few cases get there and very few people win them." There is no fee for the claimant to make a request to ACAS for early conciliation and it's also totally free to submit an ET1. Most cases don't go to tribunal because ACAS settle 70% of them during early conciliation, which is exactly why the EC phase was introduced to the process - to save court time.

Also, of those that do go to tribunal, roughly 50% are won by the claimant - hardly "very few".

@prh47bridge the example I had in mind re asset stripping was an Academy in, I think, London and involved sports facilities. It went to court and, IIRC, the transactions were unwound.

Can't find the law report now and work beckons furiously.

His parents live (and he grew up in) in the sort of places people go to for UK holidays.

His employer claimed he was therefore on holiday, he'd managed to travel there and therefore couldn't possibly be too ill to work and must have lied, instigating procedures for dismissal - which were unsuccessful, but only after a very unpleasant period which worsened his condition significantly (as the literal scars remind us every time he changes his shirt) due to him being too terrified to leave the house for appointments - or even the bedroom, in case somebody came round and saw him through the window.

@Bromptotoo What has any of that got to do with the OP’s question?

I don't know.

Which of my posts irritated you.

Oh dear, you’ve been reading a “children’s guide to employment law” and got a bit muddled there, haven’t you? 😂

They do since we left the eu

Surely all she needs to do is show her passport to provevshe didn't leave the country. It's not a crime to go shopping or sit in garden when on the sick from work (obviously depending what the sickness is)

If you have somewhere nice and relaxing to go to to get a chance of scenery why not?

I hope everyone who has spread lies gets done for bullying and harassment

Many solicitors give 30 min free legal advice. Also check home and car insurance as if you ticked legal cover then you can ask them anything. It’s well worth the £20 at renewal. If they have an employee assistance scheme then there is often a set amount of legal advice there and it’s independent from employer.

where does the burden of proof lie on the overseas trip? Is it up to prosecution to prove she went by getting ticket info etc or up to defence to prove they didn’t go?

cynical me also thinks the company could be in trouble and they want to get rid of long standing staff to avoid big redundancy payout.

she needs to get her own union involved and take it up to regional level if the local rep isn’t supporting

https://www.acas.org.uk/

Yes they do. Since Brexit UK passports are stamped. I've got stamps from the Netherlands, Germany, Austria and Italy.

She needs to get a copy of the policy around sick leave, remote work and discipline.

then read them- I would expect her to have the evidence given to her before the meeting. Depends on policy. She needs to do everything via email an copy in her union rep. She needs to be in the union.

she should check policy and ask for the evidence prior to the meeting. Then she can check it and create a defence for it.

you can be sacked for gross misconduct without warnings so it’s not wrong in this sense but it’s pretty cruel of her team to act this way. Best of luck to her. I’d fight it and then look for another job as they’ve shown their true colours.

Surely if she has a doctors note, they can't accuse of her much ? I'd say she should contact the union rep and request someone to accompany her to the meeting. Can't see it being taken any further if she has an actual doctors line though. Shouldn't have even made it this far actually ,pretty ridiculous to be accused of gross misconduct when you have a sick line

If she's signed off by doctor she's not fit to work - it's not for the employer to second guess that, they lack the necessary expertise. When I was signed off for 2 weeks, I was not permitted by my employer to go back to work before my sick note ran out, even though I felt ready to.

The company should have a sick policy which covers whether can travel on sick leave. However, this is usually thought about in the context of people signed-off on long-term stress/mental health leave, or with long-term conditions (like cancer), where actually some sun, sea and relaxation/visiting family overseas may actually be exactly what the doctor ordered, not recovering from surgery where it's more expected that will have your feet up at home. Sometimes the policies do say have to use overseas as annual leave and then go back on sick after return.

@lololulu

Genuine question to some on here. if you're off sick with MH issues or pain or unwell why would you want to go on holiday? Never mind abroad?

Because there are conditions where these symptoms persist for months or years- do you think disabled or ill people just stay in their houses forever?

Why ask such stupid questions? Obviously for some people if you have been off work for 3 months receiving cancer treatment (or a million other things), a holiday and a change of scenery is exactly what you would want to do.

Have you been to the EU post Brexit? I’ve been 9 or 10 times to 5 or 6 different countries and have an entry and exit stamp for all of them…

Yes, they do. Everytime you enter EU country, coming from UK, unless you have EU passport

The passport stamp (or lack of it) may show that she's not been on holiday in the EU, but doesn't prove she hasn't been on holiday elsewhere in the UK. However, as plenty of posters have pointed out, being on sick leave doesn't mean you can't go away.

I also have a parent who lives in a "tourist" area, so I might visit her there even if on sick leave if I was well enough to manage the train journey and wasn't going to give her a horrible lurgy. It's perfectly possible that you might go somewhere to recuperate/be looked after! People are pretty stupid about this.

Genuine question to some on here. if you're off sick with MH issues or pain or unwell why would you want to go on holiday? Never mind abroad

I'd suggest you read Nicola Nuttall's book about her daughter Laura who sadly died of brain cancer. She lived for well over four years post diagnosis and during that time, achieved a massive bucket list of things she wanted to do. She made good use of the times she felt well, but probably wouldn't have been able to hold a (full time) job down (though she did get her degree in that time as well). People may be too ill to work but it's very different to lying around a pool in Spain or wherever. It also depends on the job, you might manage to work in a WFH office job but wouldn't be able to teach a class of kids.

I was recently off for 2 weeks with anxiety and depression I'd tried to push through work and ended up worse so my doctor signed me off . I went to lunch one day and a weekend away with my partner (already booked months in advance before sick leave) a colleague found out reported me. I was questioned by my manager I said it was true .HR was informed and it went no further they didn't take issue with it

It seems there are lots of people out there just waiting to report people off sick especially when it's mental health issues. No understanding whatsoever.

It can be proved where she logged onto the computer. I suggest she goes to Citizens Advice they provide a 30 minute meeting with a solicitor FOC. And continue to support clients even assisting them in court. 20 years service is a long time to suddenly decide that your friend is abusing the system. Also ensure she gets appropriate support from her doctor.