Wrongfully being accused by brother and wife

[ForJoyousDog]

I don't know what to do! My brother has POA for finances for my mother, which he has actioned and now deals with her banking. He and his wife are doing an audit of mum's spending since dad died in 2019. Mum became a recluse after his death, the mobility car had to be returned. I live 750 miles from mum, my brother 12 miles but to help mum I did her grocery shopping online using her debit card. This turned into birthday cards, gifts, hobby materials etc but everything with her authority to use her account and card. My brother and his wife have said that now my brother "has unrestricted access to mum's account and are working closely with the bank as there are suspicious payments that have come out of her account". I have done nothing wrong, certainly not used my mothers bank account as my own but the accusation has been going on since January, the messages I get are hateful, they are relishing trying to destroy me, my husband won't support me because he told me this would happen and he is angry as to how this makes him look. My mother has told my brother that I had authority to do any shopping etc using her card, but it is still going on. I'm not eating, sleeping and my relationship is suffering. What can I do to make this stop does anyone have any ideas please?

Does your mum still have capacity? Powers of POA shouldn't be used unless she lacks capacity to manage her finances. It's in place as a safety net for for if the time comes that the person loses capacity ie advancing dementia.
I'd support your mum to get some legal advice, if she has capacity he shouldn't be passing comment on what she chose to spend or looking through all her statements without her consent.

Does your mum currently have the mental capacity to manage her own affairs? If so, your brother has no place invoking POA, surely?

This is not correct. A lasting power of attorney gives the donor the choice of whether the LPA can be used straight away or when they have lost capacity. If straight away and the donor has capacity they have input onto every decision. If they lose capacity the attorneys must make every effort to involve them in decisions as far as possible,

We checked my mum's account for fraudulent use by carers.

In her previous care home, one of the carers (who'd previously taken mum to the ATM at the top of the road, in her wheelchair, at mums request) took the card from mums purse while she was sleeping, and stole money from the account (presumably she'd watched mum put in her PIN earlier).

She was picked up on the ATM camera, lost her job, and it went to court. Ridiculously she was acquitted because the camera photo was a bit fuzzy, so the defence claimed that it couldn't prove that it was her. That despite clearly showing her pink and blonde striped hair.

Anyway, after a carer at mum's second care facility stole £50 from her purse, we had to keep her card for her and only give her minimal cash

AAAAÀAAAAAAASAAAAARRRRRRGGGGGHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!

It is tricky. I have POA for my mum and have my own card so anything she needs ordering online I can do but always keep a record. She is also able to still use her own card as she has capacity still so in your mums case you were presumably using her card with permission. I agree with your husband though that this has left you wide open to accusations of financial abuse and really your brother should have been making the purchases using the POA. Hopefully the letter from your mum will put the accusations to bed.

Just make a note of everything you bought and if all online at least there should be a record. Going forward your brother should deal with all financial matters. This is to protect yourself.

When an LPA is registered the donor can choose whether it’s put into use straight away, or has to wait until they have lost capacity. If immediate use is chosen the donor will be involved in all the decisions if they have capacity.

oh dear there seems to be a lot of misunderstanding about different sorts of PA. If in doubt perhaps it is wise not to rely on online forums.

Here's a link to Age UK

https://www.ageuk.org.uk/information-advice/money-legal/legal-issues/power-of-attorney/

Nonsense. The purchases were made before the POA was invoked. Any dealing between OP and her mother were just that — between them. It would be like any member of the family asking you to purchase something for them on the internet using their card details. The mother has capacity. No issue.

It was only after the POA was invoked that it would have been a problem and even then if the mother is happy to say she asked OP to buy things, that should also be fine. Having a POA doesn't necessarily mean you have no say in how your own money is spent.

Keep the receipts for everything.

Following this thread is like trying to understand a conversation between two people each speaking a different language and only one of them understands the other... 😀

I agree with this. Its not the end of the world. You said it was all online so there will be a record of this and of the delivery address. If its all going to her house or to relatives addresses for birthdays then there shouldn't be any problem.
You have these records. You have your mother's witnessed statement.

His bluster is just a threat. Try not to worry.

They are suspecting you because they are thinking that is what they would do given the chance but you know they have no grounds for this.

It's very upsetting to be turned on by relatives like this and accused of something you haven't done.

However, it sounds like you Mum is on your side. Don't expect any good behaviour from these relatives, lower your expectations dramatically, it will hurt less. Have you any other family?

"my husband won't support me because he told me this would happen and he is angry as to how this makes him look."

Your DH's behaviour is also appauling. He needs a reality check. OK he gets to say I told you so - give him a gold star and a paper hat for that, but worrying about himself when you are going through such an awful time is extremely selfish. He knows you didn't do it and he should be supporting you!

You will get through this. Try to distract yourself and pity your DB and SIL for being such awful people and not even realising.

Your mum has capacity and has verified the transactions. That is the end of the matter. I suggest she revokes the LPA - he is the one that sounds abusive. I can promise you the police won't look at this twice. I used to work in this field.

She hasn’t verified the transactions, whatever are you saying. She has said the op had permission, but has not verified any transactions.

Yes they can - but the OP’s brother sounds like he’s going down the non-formal route first to see if he can establish if there’s anything that can’t be accounted for before he does that given he’s seen what looks like suspicious activity. Seems like a sensible approach, esp as the OP will very easily be able to explain all the expenditure (and hopefully better than she’s done on here)

Yes.

Can't decide if he really suspects something or doesn't trust Op to spend "sensibly" by his Mum's standards on food & gifts.

Op also doesn't seem to trust her brother/sil so maybe she also needs to be asking for checks in the future?

What a mess!

I can understand why you're worried but if all the purchases were clearly for her use/benefit then I don't think there's really a problem?

I have my dad's bank card in my phone and with his permission regularly order things online for him but it's his groceries, items he wants on Amazon etc, all delivered to his address. I would imagine it would be fairly clear to anyone who queried it that I'm unlikely to be ordering men's underpants for my own benefit. 😬 I once accidentally forgot to switch the card over when I ordered something on his Amazon account but as soon as I realised I transferred the money into his account...there is a paper trail for everything I do.

To help ease how you feel, you could start printing off receipts, assuming everything you ordered was registered to your email address? I know it's a bit of a faff but it might make you feel better knowing there's a clear paper trail and you can demonstrate who all the purchases were for.

This is why it annoys me when posters take everything an OP says as gospel with no critical thinking. They are going to post a situation putting themselves as the victim!
If the mum has capacity she could have written a letter 6 months ago saying OP had done nothing wrong instead of this dragging on for 6 months.
The fact she hasn't shows there has been card activity she isn't happy with. The brother is doing his job. And saying 'I'm going to get her' sounds fitting in this scenario as OP has clearly been dodgy.

It's an absolute nightmare OP. I end up paying for stuff that my mum should pay for ( xmas pressies etc) and not asking for the money back as it just worries me that it will look bad. Mum always says just take the money but as my sister hates me it is not worth the stress. I even paid for my BIL xmas present last year and my DH got nothing as mum and dad got confused.
It's very stressful. I just don;t take any money from them as then I can't be accused of something wrong ( which I assume your DB has).

If as OP claims she has done nothing wrong then she has nothing to fear does she?
I do think there is more to this than Op says though, especially given her other thread, she may be desperately trying to justify things that may not have been entirely above board.
When a lot of people (including OP's husband) are telling her she shouldn't have done what she did based purely on HER SIDE OF THE STORY then I would be very interested to her her Brothers thoughts on the matter

II would say the evidence is that your mum certainly does have full capacity because she selected her son as her POS, who seems to be doing a bloody good job of looking out for her

i suspect that your brother is conveying tour
mothers concerns that she doesn’t feel able to articulate to you herself

if i were you Op, i’d be worried as it would seem the last few years have rather caught up with you

IME it's never wise to take legal advice online unless it's a specialist site

POAs a more common situation than some so you'd hope there'd be a wider understanding, but as we see it just isn't so

As it is, if the card holder gives verbal consent for the cards use there doesn't need to be any kind of POA in place. It's hard to go into all the complexities of the POA system and the various types/what they entail/allow. I know someone who was taken advantage of by a carer..approx £3k a month. The bank and police were both made aware and could do nothing because the cardholder had given them the pin and verbal consent to use it (intention was to buy groceries and pay bills for the cardholder) but because he, at that time had not been ruled as lacking capacity, they could do nothing

Firstly thank you for all your replies. Can I just clarify that I had been doing my mothers shopping since 2018 when my father died. My brother was aware that I was doing this and indeed had gifts that Mum asked me to order. My SIL refused contact with my mother and myself after dad's passing. Brother started saying that everything was going to be left at his door as I live 750 miles away. This was the start of the bad feeling. I was accused of abandoning my parents, that hurt. If he wasn't going to do her shopping online or otherwise, how would she get the food. The only thing I have done wrong, to which I admit, was to try and help a grieving mum in anyway I could living so far away, was to not keep records but it is all online and to trust that my brother wouldn't think this way about me. He put the POA into action in January of this year. I have not done mum's shopping since that day. Everything IS at his door now,

Maybe I’m misreading, but I didn’t get the impression he was arguing or concerned about you buying food, he is saying there are certain transactions that appear suspicious? Or has the story changed from the op and it’s now about the food?

Just let them all get on with it now, if he is still looking at suspicious transactions he can show you bank statements and ask you or mum what they were for. If mum has capacity she would have told him to activate the poa, that's her decision not his unless she now lacks capacity,