Anyone with Child arrangements orders experience?

[Tiptoptum]

My ex took me to court for a child arrangement order. During the final hearing mention was made of the visits increasing in X months.

I didn’t agree with it and I wasn’t certain it was “Ordered” anyway.

The other side believed it was and it was put in the Order and sent to the Judge.

It came back signed off, but the bit about access increasing on X date wasn’t there.

He didn’t challenge it, and I didn’t want it anyway, so I left it.

Now ex has told our child how in X weeks he is having them on X night as well.

Now, ex seems to feel that the Order is fluid for him, but rigid for me. He is clearly going to just take the extra night, despite it not being in the Order that he quotes regularly.

Where do I stand with this? I’m worried if I return to court then he will jump on and go for more access (and may get it who knows) but if I ignore it then it’s just a total mockery of the Order and he will just continue doing what he wants to do?

I am in a complete quandary what to do, we already have issues over persistent lateness bringing home and refusal to give passports back to me to look after (also in the Order) so it’s not like this is one thing and just adding another night is quite a big thing.

Child is 9 and it’s a lives with order in my favour, with him currently EOW and one night for tea.

Maybe contact the court to clarify? Were no solicitors involved?

Yes there were Barristers, who unfortunately won’t just advise without a fair bit of money upfront, and this is not in the Order.
My Barrister (when I said that but wasn’t in it) said “until the Judge says otherwise that’s the Order”
He also said that ex would need to challenge anything he didn’t agree with.
Obviously ex has bypassed challenging and just gone straight for going by the Order he would like to have, not the one he actually has

I took my EXDP to Court and got an Order (I have lives with, he now does EOW and half school holidays) as I was sick of him refusing to regularise the contact schedule.

It can be frustrating as my EXDP still changes things when he pleases e.g. decides he's not going to collect DC from school, but instead collects DC from home and after bedtime despite what's in the Order, however he probably sticks to 90% of it, so it was worth doing.

If it's not specified in the Order, there is no obligation for you to do as he says. He will have to go back to Court to get the specifics put in, if he's really that fussed about it.

I think the issue is he is going to do it.
He has EOW, half holidays and a Wednesday tea time visit.
The Wednesday is the one that he is going to keep her on, so he will already have her and just refuse to bring her back, so no amount of saying no is going to stop him.

You can do one (or both) of two things.

1. He keeps her Wednesday night. Next weekend he has her a day later. You get your night back.
2. You apply back to court as he is in breach of the order. You file a C79 enforcement application.

Doing option 1 is risky. It has the potential to exacerbate conflict and make things worse. Doing option 2 may embroil you in further proceedings but he doesn’t look good.

Is there any reason why he couldn’t have her the Wednesday overnight?

You would have to go to mediation before taking it back to court.

Is it really out of the question for him to have her on the Wednesday? The risk you run is that if he takes you back to court that he will get it (if there is no good reason not to) and you'll get a spanking for being unreasonable and forcing it back to court. The judge may have felt that he/she was clear that contact should increase if XYZ happens and if you take their time up they may be unimpressed and inclined to side with the father.

If it was me I would let him have his way

Sounds like the both of you are just being petty

If you want to spend all your money going to court and getting court orders then go nuts....enjoy

If you want more money to do fun things with your kids and look back at fun photos then do that

I don't get why people spend all there lives arguing about every little detail

I'm divorced and my ex has them when she wants (they live with me 7 days a week)

Love is too short to keep arguing all the time

There is a backstory of DV and this Order being used to “keep me in line”
My ex goes through it with a fine tooth comb to make life tricky for me, whilst not sticking to it himself.

We have big issues over timekeeping as an example, he is always late dropping back every time, I’m meant to hold the passports and he won’t give me it back.

He wanted 50/50 and neither a Judge nor Cafcass gave him that, so he is now trying to do it via a back door.

It’s not being petty. I was dragged to court repeatedly over 3.5 years by him to get to this, this is his order that he insisted on getting.

Our child doesn’t want to stay the extra night. He is fun parent, he does fun things and he isn’t the functional parent and I feel this would be to the detriment of our child.

I also feel it sets a precedent, he wants 50/50 and if he does this, after all the concerns I listed in court, then it looks like they now aren’t concerns.

I am in two minds what to do. I have no money left and it was years of hell against an abusive man, but now this is being used as a continuation of that abuse .

It also doesn’t say in the Order to increase it. It was mentioned, but I was in such a panic I didn’t really hear but then it was not in the Judges final order

I'd let him have the Wednesdays.
My dh went to court and was awarded everything you have plus mid week. There's no reason not too if she's already going there.
I'd have loved my ex to do a mid week

One night isn't worth the fight. And be careful your daughter isn't just saying what she wants you to hear, that was going on on both sides with us but the judge took my husbands and mid week worked very well for many years

Make sure dd has homework and reading /spellings with her Wednesday.. He needs to get her to school all prepared Thursday ... And on time... Check with school this happens.. Keep notes.

@Collaborate the Judge did mention it in court, but he didn’t Order it. Ex did not challenge within the 21 days, or at all. It is absolutely not in the Order, not even a nod is given to it.

I am worried that if I go back to court the original judge will say “oh I meant for him to have it” and I will look difficult and he will get even more. Ex wanted 50/50 and neither Cafcass nor a higher Judge believed he should have that.

In theory it’s another 12 hours really, but once he gets that in place then it lends power to his 50/50 quest, which is what this is all over.

If I write to ex expressing my refusal over this and pointing out it is not in the Order would that suffice in the meantime? I at least need a record that I have disagreed with this.
I am trying to speak to my Barrister but she wants £400 to discuss this, so I need to know what I can do so I’ve covered things prior to speaking to her.

How many times has he taken you to court? In what ways is he / was he abusive?

This is standard fare with people like him who have fuck all respect for a CAO apart from their rights under it. You have none and you are expected to just put up with it. It isn’t just about an extra night it’s about what is best for your child in all of this and to what extent the Order is being used to control you to the detriment of your child.

my ex tried to rewrite the CAO in every which way possible except through an actual application to vary. It didn’t end well for them.

You don't say how old the order is. If it was only 6-12 months ago then stay as you are. There has to be a change in circumstances to justify change. Sometimes a child getting older is a change of circumstances.

If the chid doesn't want to stay midweek then that is an important factor.

Does he collect her from school on a Wednesday, or from your house?

Basically he took me to court for the Order (he wanted 50/50) and this lasted nearly 3 years, with Cafcass involvement and him refusing to accept that no one was going to grant it, so that went to a final hearing, and we got the order nearly a year ago.

He has already told me he will be taking me back for his “50/50” so I think he is hoping that I will be pushed to return so he can jump on it.

We have two children and the elder one refuses to see him, which is in the Order.

He had been violent to me and on occasion the children, Cafcass acknowledged that and I am considered vulnerable with him.

As soon as he got the Order he reverted to late returns, I’ve never known him return anything less than 30 mins late. He goes through it looking for ways to bend it, he tried to force me to keep to the weekend schedule during the holidays and wouldn’t have it even when I sent the Order with it highlighted that it didn’t.

Ive had to give up with texts etc, I only respond via email as he’s constantly being clever and belittling.

I hoped once he had the Order it would stop, but it doesn’t. He has the actual order, which he uses when he wants to, then there’s the rough order, which wasn’t signed off but which includes the increase, which he is now using as his guide.

Its almost impossible and nothing I say will make the bloody blindest bit of difference to what he does

Sorry, we got the order in October last year. It was also done by an HHJ, so a very experienced Judge.

He did mention this increase, but it is not in the Order. He collects from school.

It was also in the Cafcass report, but again, I argued against it, and it wasn’t in the Order

You are absolutely not being petty, that's so insulting of someone to say that. I am in the same boat as you and am now 5.5yrs into proceedings since I left a very abusive and controlling man. My children dnt want to go, he wafts the order in my face to suit himself but then will often dump the children home early etc so pleases himself. He's currently going for half the holidays, cafcass section seven says children voiced not more than two days so judge decided 4 nights at a time... It is beyond infuriating and lots not even mention the costs involved. Feel free to message me for a chat, I absolutely hear you. With men like that you just can't win. I am learning to accept that I have to wait until the children are "old enough" for their voice to be properly heard, but in the meantime it's soul destroying for them and just empowers and enables him to keep pushing the boundaries and cherry-picking the fun bits of "parenting". It's hideous

I am worried that if I go back to court the original judge will say “oh I meant for him to have it” and I will look difficult and he will get even more

You genuinely do run the risk of this.

I appreciate you are scared of him pushing it to 50/50. Court orders are only a bit of paper at the end of the day and can only be enforced if parents can afford to keep going back to court to try to enforce them. When are the passports due to be renewed? The lateness is frustrating but you know why he's doing it so you need to learn not to let it bother you.

They were renewed last year! He just hasn’t given it back and ignores all requests for it.
Again, clearly stated in the Order that I am to have passports

Yes and again a court order is really only a bit of paper. You can go back to court to have this part of the order enforced but if you don't do that then he can ignore it with impunity.

It's so frustrating that the parent who doesn't have Lives With is able to use the Order to their advantage, but ignore it with impunity when it doesn't suit them.

Lives With parent only has to make the DC available, unfortunately. Nothing happens if he messes you about with late pickups/dropoffs, other than that it's very frustrating for the Lives With parent (overwhelmingly usually the mother).

@Collaborate

Tbh he is to the letter over picking up on time, it’s everything else, trying to find a get out clause over drop offs, trying to claim I must work out the holiday schedule giving him half, whilst also sticking to the weekend schedule, arguing over every holiday, bringing back late, ignoring injuries that need attention, and now this, just giving himself an extra night that isn’t in the Order he spent three years getting, but that he’s going to take anyway

The other thing that these sort of men ( and women to be fair) Iove is control and reactions.
I'd show no reaction to the Wednesdays, send homework etc and ignore it.
I stopped giving my ex husband reactions years ago and after a while he got bored. So bored he walked for three years and by the time he wanted back in the children were approaching young adult age and he's been left on the periphery.
The passport I would report as lost to the passport office, renew and then write to him saying as it was lost you've replaced it.