Neighbours want to adjust exterior of our property

[leavethewallalone]

We have lived in our house for coming up 8 years now. 2 years ago new people moved in next door just before lockdown. We don't have much to do with them other than saying hi when they moved in and taking in parcels for them but they seem ok.

We live in terraced houses but each house has a single storey bit at the back that is detached. They're a kind of weird shape in how they are built because they are 70 years old, think a kind of wonky L shape. The wall of our extended bit sits very close to the boundary and as a result there is some overhang of soffits. This has always been the case and some of the neighbouring properties are the same.

Last week we had a planning letter come through our door. They plan to extend their little detached bit in both directions up to the boundary (single storey). I'm a bit shocked that they didn't speak to us before putting in planning permission, I know you don't have to but a heads up would have been good.
We popped round just to ask what their plans were, how long they thought the work might take as we both WFH so this would really impact us. It would also means gardens were not secure for a time period and we have children and a dog so this wouldn't be ideal, but is what it is. They talked us through their plans and I pointed out that the work they needed to do would mean altering our property as our exterior is currently in the way of where they want theirs to go. They just said "yes" without anything else. I tried to remain polite and asked why they hadn't spoken to us about this before putting in planning permission as this was not just proposed work to their property, but now ours. They shrugged and said ours shouldn't be built the way it is but they'd cover the cost for us. I pointed out that every property here is like it and if they wanted to extend they probably shouldn't have moved in to a house where there are boundary issues that have been known for 70 years.

We've had some back and forth with them offering nothing in the way of a you scratch my back, I'll scratch yours agreement, and just feel that we should let them do it. I've now said absolutely not.

I've spoken to the old neighbours who we are still in touch with and asked if they ever had any problems with the boundary. They said no but they did have to take out insurance that covered this in case our property ever damaged their garden etc. We have had to do the same because we have the same on the other side so this make sense.

I've gone through the deeds and any paperwork that I have regarding disputes, I even have really old building documents. No issues raised at any point in 70 years of this house being as it is.

AIBU or should neighbours move elsewhere if they're desperate to extend?

The house on the other side of them is empty so I have no idea what they're doing about that side.

Even if you get planning permission you can’t proceed without a party wall agreement if one is needed.

And PP doesn’t allow you to alter a neighbour’s roof that is on their own land.

OP, there is a way of tucking guttering in on top of your wall, rather than extending beyond. It shouldn’t require loss of 3’ of your roof space.

@leavethewallalone
I would still advise you contact the planning officer. If the drawings show anything on your land and you haven’t agreed or they have said they own the land, the application should be withdrawn. It’s far too common for planning departments to be relaxed about this but we got the balcony pp withdrawn. You need to contact the planning officer and request the same. Send in your ownership plans to prove it. Tell them to look at Land Registry if that proves your point. It’s not a legal application if they have lied about land ownership.

They will get planning consent but will not be able to build it without the consent of the OP.

Do you really think they have been told they can destroy 3ft of the neighbour's roof space?

When my dsis ndn's started work on the adjoining property to add another floor they were lowering the ceilings in the adjoining bedroom to do this and she stopped the work as there was no party wall agreement in place. She got legal advice through her building insurance legal cover who appointed a surveyor. Thr ndn's had to pay the additional costs.

So my first thought would be to check the legal cover and get advice before planning is granted. Good luck with finding a solution.

The last line of OP states that the empty house is on the other side of the NDN.

So op is end of terrace?

Because I asked who was on the other side of the op

I’ve read the OPs posts but not all of the replies. So forgive me if someone has suggested this.

The deeds obviously show how the houses were built. You have what is known as a flying freehold/leasehold.

Down load your Land Registry Title Register and Title Plan. www.gov.uk/get-information-about-property-and-land

Also get a copy of your neighbours at the same time. The plan/register may well show the flying freehold as these are often shown if in the deeds.

If the Land Registry doesn’t have the flying freehold recorded you could apply for it to be registered based on the deeds or adverse possession on the basis it has been used as part of your property for 70 years.

You state your neighbours want to not only extend to the boundary but also 2 ft into your property. That is crazy, I would certainly be pointing that out to planning.

As others have stated, you have a right of long user and they cannot just alter your property op. PP's have mentioned party wall legislation but the party wall act is there to facilitate building not stop it I am afraid. You can throw a spanner in the works by instructing your own surveyor and letting them meet the costs but long term you cannot stop it this way. I know of people who just ignore the PWA simply because they know you would have to apply to the courts to stop the works, which is expensive and risky.

They cannot alter your property without your permission. They bought the house knowing the layout, boundaries etc. As a pp has said, they cannot adjust the overhang without your permission given the length of time it has all been in place. No-one in real life would agree to letting someone make major changes to their property like this. Its not about making a fuss, it's about protecting your most valuable asset long term.

Do you mean op will get planning to build on either side of her and take back what was originally hers

i would kick up a huge fuss if NDN thought they could just take parts of my house

I think they are in complete ignorance of planning laws, boundaries and land registry.
That is why they are quite calm about everything.
And offering to repair op’s fence in exchange for a few square foot of op’s house

I think they are clueless and one of the problems with clueless people is the damage they cause because they haven’t looked at things carefully or don’t understand what getting planning actually means.

I would bet that they think planning means they can do what they like with op’s property

FROM EXPERIENCE - YOU NEED TO SPEAK TO A SURVEYOR ASAP!
It may cost you a little but will put your mind at ease and you will know for sure whether they need to help you through the process or you can do it alone. I strongly suspect the former. Do not rely on anything the planning dept will tell u, they will just fob you off with whatever will cause least work for them. This sounds like a tricky one and yr neighbours are being CFs!!

Object on the grounds that it will man your property will be affected by the actual build and that your garden will not be safe for your dog - who needs to use a safe garden or your children. That will put paid to their extension.

Also raise the issue of you both wfh and the noise would prevent that. Hopefully that will be job done no consent issued. They will then have to talk to you properly.

What AHs. Mind you we did the same with our neighbours - we didn't talk to them about a conservatory on the back of our house - wall the same height as the existing solid fence between us and the neighbours, so no light issues into their garden.

When the planners came to look, we asked our neighbour to share their thoughts - they said they were happy but could we add some windows above the fence height on their side. We agreed that and planners approved. Without my neighbour the council would not have approved the build.

Good luck OP,

Haven't read through all the replies. You will find party wall guidance if you google party wall rics. There is also an RICS helpline scheme. RICS stands for Royal Institute of Chartered Surveyors. Party wall issues happen all the time and an experienced surveyor will be able to lead you through this matter and give you all the advice you need. They will also arrange to have their costs covered by the party applying for the boundary work. Good luck.

You seem annoyed that the new kids on the block have beat you to it in regards to building extensions.
Think carefully about this as you don’t want to end up at war with next door

Remember, no is a complete sentence.

Yes in mumsnet world, where there is a biting and clever retort.

in the real world, people would probably look at you quizzically and probably have to conceal a chuckle

I think people are getting a number of issues confused.

1. Re planning permission... anyone can try to get planning permission for things on their or others land. So I can put in planning permission to knock down my terrace and replace with a block of flats.... it may even be granted...

However

1. It's irrelevant that I don't own the Terrace. I just can't stary works without buying the existing properties
2. For those that are commenting on the overhang.... a wide variety of fyling freeholds are recognised and are quite co.mon in terraces, especially older terraces. So some people even have internal rooms built over next door's downstairs.... it causes issues but they are not surmountable.
3. To actually carry out the works the OPs neighbour may even need to apply for planning to change the OPs roofline... OP can object that it would not be in keeping with the other properties
4. Neighbour cannot start work without an agreement with OP...... at least not on that part of the extension.
5. OP needs to get proper legal advice, especially if they do agree to the work being done..... and the mortgage company needs to be informed, especially if it involves a change to the mortgaged buildings structure

@Booboobagins
im afraid you are almost certainly wrong about pp. Neighbours asking for something doesn’t get you pp. Planning policies determine what is permitted snd what is not, otherwise it would be a free-for-all with neighbours bribed. Windows in a roof might be required in a policy or not if they overlook habitable rooms. Skylights are frequently ignored as they don’t overlook anyone.

The main issue here is applying for pp which requires use of someone else’s land without permission.

Sorry about typos... predictive text and can't see full screen until I post... so insurmountable etc

I think you will find the ownership declaration on a planning application interesting.

No this is not on at all. Put your foot down. Some people on my street moved because of the damage the neighbours did to their house during extention.
You were here first.

From the way that you describe it, you would have to change the pitch on the roof of at least one side of your "extension" (it's not really an extension per se as the houses were built that way in the first place - more the L leg of the house's original footprint). It's the eaves of that L that "overhang" - not the foundations - and have done for over 70 years since the houses were built.

So who is going to pay for that work on your roof? And as you say, in order to be symmetric, both sides would have to be done. (I think that's also what you say that you'd lose so much roof space). Your neighbours seem to have "kindly" offered to rebuild a fence (that they in all probability would have wanted taken down for convenience during the building works anyway) but have they even factored in s new roof for you?

I think in your objection, you need to add in the knock-on consequences - that it's not just the appearance of the neighbour's extension, it's also the fact that your own house would have to be altered and that you'd object to that too

I know about planning policy, Ive commented on plenty enough strategic and local plans in my working life to catch the drift!

What I'm saying is what a neighbour thinks is taken into account and can sway things. It def did at my house.

Thanks for the education, but I don't really need it 😀

@Booboobagins
It doesn’t change planning policy. It doesn’t change anything if the comments are irrelevant. You might comment but it doesn’t mean you sway anything. Unless what you say is in keeping with policy or you agree a proposal doesn’t follow policy. A single person or even organisation talking rubbish is still rubbish no matter how often they say it.